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 Post subject: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:13 pm 
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My first paltry attempt at the scroll helmet article is online if it interests you.

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Sc ... lmets.html

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:10 pm 
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Well done Joe. I have read all of your articles, this one is in my opinion, is =D> your best. I love this investigative approach. Really an enjoyable read.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:09 pm 
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I second Tony's remarks. Great job , Joe!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:06 pm 
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Another great article Joe!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:22 pm 
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Thanks so much guys -- this one's been kicking around for awhile. Its either start on another one or go back and fix up the ones I already did. I'm always looking for pictures! Thanks again.

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 Post subject: Excelent article
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:06 pm 
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Really enjoyable to read. I think R22 was in the 117th Division IX corps but at what point I can not remember , the 117th Division was brought together to pull POLISH elements out if other Silesia Division's .
Very good Pics and article was excelent.
Mark


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:30 am 
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Just seen this on the Wietze website-
https://www.weitze.net/detail/54/Preuss ... 03554.html

Not quite a scroll helmet but of a simialr type. What you you chaps think?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Hi, it appears to be identical with this helmet: http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm59.pl?f=NR_LOT&c=6239&t=temartic_M_D&db=kat59_m.txt

I had a look at it at the Hermann Historica auction but I did not hold it in hands. The helmet already was on Weitzes Site in 2008 (see this discussion: http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3625&highlight=weitze)

The pattern of the numbers is somewhat similar to those on a helmet that I sold on ebay this year. I would really love to see a reference of this type of helmet numbers


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:38 am 
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Excellent! Great information.

:D Ron

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:11 am 
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Excellent article Joe, that was a lot of work and effort, Bravo.

Larry


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:32 am 
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Thanks I hope to have three new pictures shortly. Still so much to learn about these. I still have the Weitze one in the ? Box. there was a guy at SOS several years ago who had a very blurry picture of a type I helmet with four digits. He broke contact unfortunately. Never did see a good picture.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:08 pm 
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This has now been updated with new pictures and some different slant's.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:24 pm 
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url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/joerookery/5261192668/]Image[/url]
ps226 by joerookery, on Flickr

This goes back to Robert's 247. what is different about this picture is that there are both helmets and shakos. a big blowup of the guy on the right shows that he has a cover where you can make out the numbers 24. so what is up with this?

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ps226c by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps226a by joerookery, on Flickr

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:30 pm 
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Some nice photos but nothing earth shattering.

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ps227 by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps227b by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps227c by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps228 by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps228b by joerookery, on Flickr

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:36 pm 
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This one is quite interesting–from the German archives–which unit is it?
JR23??? Is this even in Macedonia?

Image
ps230 by joerookery, on Flickr

Image
ps230b by joerookery, on Flickr

Image
ps230c by joerookery, on Flickr

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Quote:
Some nice photos but nothing earth shattering.

Quite an understatement! Excellent pictures :D

Concerning IR23 it was not in the area. It's location can be tracked over the 12th Inf. Division (Short Overview). IR33 does not seem to have been there either, only FAR33 would be a possibility this unit was in Macedonia. Does the right man's shoulder flap give a hint?

The mixture of helmets is astonishing. It seems now again that anything is possible. On your IR23/33 picture it really looks like the scrolls have the same number. This would mean they actually were issued arbitrarily wherever needed. On the first picture (247), the left guy with the Shako is wearing his neckflap with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:01 pm 
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I can see no detail on the straps. can you make out a number on the guys in the airplane? There are close-ups but I cannot see anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:24 pm 
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It looks to me like 249 to me. The first two digits are more clear on the close-up of the man at the steering wheel, while the third digit is partly visible on his shoulder flap which is curled up.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:09 am 
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Hopefully this is of interest to those browsing through Joe's superb article.

This landed in my mailbox this afternoon. The original is quite tatty and the preview photos weren't so great, I actually thought I was buying just another French POW picture.

It was quite a pleasant surprise when I looked at the photo under the loupe. Can't quite make out the number on the scroll though :???:

Image
Scroll helmet by drakegoodman, on Flickr

Image
Scroll helmet enlarged by drakegoodman, on Flickr

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Scroll helmet reverse by drakegoodman, on Flickr

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:44 am 
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Great! What is the last word? 28? 23?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Great picture and the back writing makes it even more mysterious! I had difficulties reading it. The words "gefangene" (captured) and "Westfront" are rather clear, the word left below may be "Russen" but it is written with two "z" which is strange. The top right word is probably the name of a town.

I would urge you to post this on the Great war forum (if you have no account there, I can also post this). This card is great and maybe be possible to find out the name of the location.

BTW, is the left sitting man wearing his Adrian helmet reverse?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:06 pm 
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Addition.. the writing could also mean "gefangene Kolonial-Truppen Westfront". Does the german soldier have Brandenburg cuffs (three buttons sideways) or Swedish cuffs (two cuffs vertical)? I am discussing this with another collector and he added the info that the picture could also show members of Pionier Btl. 28, the 9. company was stationed in Serbia.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:56 pm 
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Image
ps306 by joerookery, on Flickr

A bunch of doctors.

Image
ps306a by joerookery, on Flickr

Now that I am back I intend to tackle this 28!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:25 pm 
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Robert wrote:
Addition.. the writing could also mean "gefangene Kolonial-Truppen Westfront". Does the german soldier have Brandenburg cuffs (three buttons sideways) or Swedish cuffs (two cuffs vertical)? I am discussing this with another collector and he added the info that the picture could also show members of Pionier Btl. 28, the 9. company was stationed in Serbia.


Thank-you Robert, sorry it's taken a while to respond. Work, Christmas, work, New years, work ...

I've emailed the chap who supplied me with the photo, asking if had further and better particulars, in addition to the obvious "do you have more"? Still awaiting a response.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:23 pm 
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joerookery wrote:
A bunch of doctors.


Hi Joe,

Are these doctors in Macedonia or Palestine?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:27 am 
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Macedonia

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:58 am 
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Thanks for the confirmation Joe, I don't think I'd seen the white tropical tunic (seated second from right) in Macedonia before...

What do you make of the chap seated fourth from left (or right)? It looks like he's got a couple of small stars on his collar...

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:31 am 
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First I am not sure about the guy with the stars. Perhaps Peter can tell us something about his helmet??

I think I have seen white uniforms in a picture of Albania/Scutari(sic). just memory.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:16 am 
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From Ken S on the great war forum.

Joe, the word would seem to me to be Vuzzen but have no idea what it could mean. Seems to be a place name, which it seems he was spelling phonetically. There is nothing in the regimental history that suggests such a place.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Here's my take on the issue of Macedonian uniform variations , including the scroll helmet.... http://www.sacktrick.com/igu/germancolo ... edonia.htm

Image

Of course, I'm largely indebted to you fellows for the source material. Please let me know if you think I've got something wrong or am missing something obvious....

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:29 am 
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Nice site; reading through your article makes me wonder - are there references of steel helmets being used in Mecedonia? It seems they should be ubiquitous after 1916 but actually I cannot remember any pictures at all.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:41 am 
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Good question! I do not think I have seen any either. I have seen pictures of Bulgarian Soldiers wearing steel helmets.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Glad you enjoyed the site, Robert. Yes, very good question... thanks for picking up on that point.

Our friend Peter H put a photo on the Axis History Forum (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=63639)
The caption says "Hill 1050 position held by Germans,Macedonian front 1917" and they are steel helmets, but can't be 100% certain from the angle of the photo that they're not Bulgarians...

It would seem very odd that the Germans are holding front line positions and giving their allies on the same front steel helmets but denying their own troops the same protection...

That said, no, I don't think I've ever seen a clear photo proving the use of steel helmets on the Macedonian front by the German army. I'll change the text on the page.

Has anyone else seen steel helmets on the Macedonian Front?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:33 am 
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Today's brainteaser based on a translation of his very light writing on the back of this card. What is most interesting are the dates and the inclusion of an artillery regiment??!! Maybe for the Ersatz function??

Image
ps1180 by joerookery, on Flickr

Image
ps1180a by joerookery, on Flickr

Feldpostkarte
An
Karl Platz
Fuhrunternehmer
Kaiserwilhelmstr. N 7
Bensheim an der Bergstr.
Abs. Schütze Spöhr 107. Division Feld
Art. Reg. 213 Geb. M. G. Abt. 228.
Montag d. 1. 11. 15
Viele Grüße sendet Euch allen Adolf Spöhr
Wenig weile, g… ?
drum nur Gruß mit einer Zeile
den wir müssen …

Field artillery Regiment 213 was definitely part of 107 division. According to the 251 divisions–no mention of these guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Here's a variation for sale-
https://www.weitze.net/detail/54/Preuss ... 554_e.html

Image

Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:12 pm 
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I have seen this helmet before and another one somewhat similar. I am not convinced that those numbers are all good to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:17 pm 
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ps1636 by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps1636a by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps1636b by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps1636c by joerookery, on Flickr

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:45 am 
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Great pic, Joe!

Cheers
Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Great picture and once again with walking cane. They must have issued a special M15 cane pattern to these troops so many of them use one :D


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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Quote:
"Würrtemberg mountain train" -mule-mounted company

Here is another example from the collection at Fort de la Pompelle taken by Max Chaffotte. The museum attributes this helmet to the "Würrtemberg mountain train" 4th mule-mounted company of the 101st mountain division. 1916. While this division spent almost all its time in Macedonia it was not a Württemberg division however it is noted according to the 251 Divisions as having had four Württemberg pack trains in 1918. There is no mention of this helmet in the Württemberg book and the cockade on the left side of the helmet appears to be a Reich's cockade. You will also notice that there is no Nackenschutz on this helmet.


Image
ps1658b by joerookery, on Flickr

Image
ps1658c by joerookery, on Flickr

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Now that is one heck of a rare picture. The type of the front plate seems to be different than on the pictured helmet - smaller curve radius and no visible scroll. The absence of the neck flap seems OK to me, they would get lost over time.

There is a lot of confusion about that train unit, the 4th company of Württemb. Train-Bataillon Nr.13 was founded in October 1913 and evidently stuck to the mountain units somehow.


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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Joe, did you wind up winning the photo on eBay.de? :bravo: =D>

It's an incredible image!!!

I was watching it, and wondered who ended up getting it.

All the Best,

Alan

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Thanks Alan,

Expensive little bugger–I do not think there are many outside of this forum that would appreciate the rarity. Most people would just look at the Edelweiss.

Robert,

You are correct this is not a variant with the scroll. But as I see no number and it was postmarked in Würrtemberg it seems like a logical fit. I have asked several people for help in translating the back of the card as I cannot decipher it.

You seem to have more information than I do on the 4th company TB 13. Can you expand on that a little bit? Based on the timing is this still TB 13? Yes I am confused! But think where we were several years ago on this subject! Thank everybody for all their help.

Image
ps1658a by joerookery, on Flickr

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Hey Joe,
This is a difficult one, and I have not managed the place it was written, but the text is pretty much standard. Written on the 20th of October 1916
Liebe Hilda
Sende ?ihr? ?das?
letzen Grüße von
mein Ausmarsch
dein (abbreviations that I can not make out) Rudolf
and now my eyes have gone crossed and I can not see anything, thank you very much

Best
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:07 am 
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What gets me is the strange combination. The Edelweiß would indicate that he was a participant in the mountain war. I cannot imagine that it was issued that way, perhaps a personal souvenir after he was reassigned to another unit? The neckflap quite surely means he was heading for the Balkans when the picture was taken.

Leutkirch where the card was stamped was the location of the 2. and 3. company of the Ersatz-Bataillon of the Württemberg mountain regiment. I never did figure out how the Württemb. Tragtier-Züge (carriage animal units) where assigned; these were active in Serbia and Macedonia. Also I remember reading about the 4th company of the Train Batl. being there. Regrettably there is little info about train units. I will ask in a German forum, maybe somebody has more infos about them.

I will try at the translation later together with my mother, although the writing is really difficult.


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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:21 pm 
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No luck at translating, Gustaf already found about everything I could read.

However, I was informed that the white rim of the shoulder flap indicates a Bavarian unit. Evidently the Bavarian mountain units wore infantry uniforms which had this detail. The Bavarian geb. MG-Abt. 248 was assigned to the Alpencorps until March 1916. The other Geb. MG-Abtl. used the Prussian grey-green uniforms and had numbers on their shoulder flaps. This also includes the Württemberian Abtl. 250 - I have a death card, the picture is bad but the number on the shoulder flap is visible.

I still would like to find out more about the Württembergian train and carriage units though. If anybody visits the Pompelle museum, could you ask them about their source? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:52 pm 
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I don't know Robert. It sure would be nice if there was something to decipher on the back. I would not even agree that they shoulder flap rim is certainly white. could be. I cannot even see the top of the shoulder strap. Is there a number? I don't know. It almost looks like there is a small cockade. is what you are saying that all Bavarian MGMA had no shoulder strap number? Therefore it could be nothing but Bavarian? I also would like to learn more about these transport units and would love to have some source information. Museum labels are at best only a clue. What is your source think this guy is? Some sort of replacement to a Bavarian unit? Which one? Why is the scroll blank? Were these transport units ever part of the Alpenkorps? what do you think the best source material is?

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Hey Joe,
I can not see that there can be anything of importance on the back. I think he writes vor mein Ausmarsch thought rather than von. The more I look at the last two lines, the less I get from them.
Best
Gsu

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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:54 pm 
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Joe,
from what I was told all Bavarian Geb-MG.Abtl. carried the uniforms of the infantry. Maybe I can find out the source of that, and whether it maybe only concerns the later batch of units with numbers below 210.

The should flap seems to be the only hard evidence at the moment. All other GMGA pictures show numbers on the shoulder flaps, without rim. The train units had blue shoulder flaps from what I read. So this is just ONE possibility - a Bavarian member of Geb-MG.Abt.248 from the near border area in Württemberg, who participated in the alpine war (perhaps in another unit) and received the Edelweiß.
Quote:
Museum labels are at best only a clue.

That is true. I To me it looks like the label on the picture tells something about a "division de montagne" - a "mountain division" (which did not exist).

Why is the scroll blank? One idea - it must have been a logistical nightmare to provide so many company-sized units with specialized helmets of their own. So why not produce them blank and stamp them close to the war theater when needed, e.g. in the depot in Serbia. Any replacements would march out with blank helmets and get them stamped when they reached their depot. As with most theories, if it sounds likely then it probably isn't true..

It seems that the train and carriage units receive little attention in most literature. Difficult to track them, I would really like to find out more. One picture and so many questions!


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 Post subject: Re: Scroll Helmet Article
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:35 pm 
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All of us are just flopping around :) :) :)
Quote:
Why is the scroll blank? One idea - it must have been a logistical nightmare to provide so many company-sized units with specialized helmets of their own. So why not produce them blank and stamp them close to the war theater when needed, e.g. in the depot in Serbia. Any replacements would march out with blank helmets and get them stamped when they reached their depot. As with most theories, if it sounds likely then it probably isn't true..


It is a logical idea but it does not hold with some other recruit pictures we have. This is an ausmarche photo yes? So the question becomes did he receive the Edelweiß? Or did he just wear it as one of the flowers?

Quote:
It seems that the train and carriage units receive little attention in most literature. Difficult to track them, I would really like to find out more. One picture and so many questions!


Amen brother! :!:

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