Sachsen Pickelhaube in Traumzustand..?

[vonkluck14]

Hi Folks!

Last week I bought a Sachsen helmet on E Bay, posted as "original Sachsen Pickelhaube in Traumzustand".

However, the Bombe isn't made of the usual leather, but feels like hard plastic.. Could this be the Ersatz fiber that occurs now and then? The parts are stitched together. The spike is higher then the regular Line Infantery examples.
The interior is made of fine brown leather and silk, matching a privately owned helmet for an NCO or One Year Volunteer. On the outside, nothing indicates it as being any other then a helmet for regular troops.

The Sachsen Kokarde looks genuine, but shows more wear then the rest of the helmet.

Can any of you specialists help me out? Is this a replica, or a specific "in between" specimen?

As I am still able to contact the seller, I would appreciate your swift commentss

best regards
Marcel

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[Tony & Kaiser]

That is not a replica. Takes some photos of the interior, liner, and with the liner flipped up if you can. Could well be a fibre example.
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[joerookery]

Just to bring up an old issue. I always thought Sachsen cockades were serrated sometime later in the war. I can find no photographic evidence to support this at all. So the question is were they ever serrated??
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[vonkluck14]

This helmet becomes even more curious. As the interior is made of fine leather and silk, I've looked for any marks of the craftsman/firm wo made it. I can't find any marks or stamps, but I did find a band of folded newspaper behind the leather lining to decrease the contour for fitting purposes. The curious part is that the newspaper happens to be the issue of Sunday 13 octobre 1918 of the "Anzeige und Tagesblat"!! This means that the owner used this newspaper at the end of the war or thereafter to fit his helmet.

I also enclose some more pictures of the interior.

what do you make of this Tony?

best regards
Marcel




IMG]http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx359/vonkluck14/IMG_8719.jpg[/IMG]es.

[poniatowski]

It looks like a good helmet to me. I don't know much about Saxon Cockades, so am no help there... Perhaps late war private purchase? Post WWI (Late 1918 or into 1919 or so) private purchase?

I like the newspaper and it will make a nice display with the helmet if you don't put it back into its original spot. Things like that are always cool.

This may be one of those if it feels good, looks good, smells good, it is probably good helmets. One never knows 100% for sure what was produced late / after WWI.

Question on French, 'Bombe' Dome or top portion of helmet? (sorry for my ignorance)

Ron
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I really do need to know more about this....

[Tony & Kaiser]

I think that is a beautiful little helmet. Very nice example. And it is leather as I expected, not fibre. I don't think the serated edge Sachsen Kokarde issue will ever been solved until someone scores a photo that clearly shows one. I have one on one on my Ersatz Sachsen examples and it does not appear to be a replica at all. I am comfortable with it. Ron, Europeans often refer to a Pickelhaube body as the "Bombe" same as some of us call it the "shell". T
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[b.loree]

For what its worth, my Saxon M15 came with an original serrated edged kokarde (Saxe) and original M15 chin strap (grey buckles and M91 end fittings). It came from a very old collection and was marked to the 100th Leib Regt. Nothing on this helme had been messed with so in my opinion the serrated kokarde did exist. Unfortunately, it had to be sold during the marriage melt down of "07". Brian
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[Adler]

First of all: It's a beautiful helmet Marcel.
Since it's a private purchase helmet, sometimes some strange things happened. In this case, its possible that the original owner just liked the serrated cokarden and ordered the helmet with cokarden of one of the Saxonian Duchies...
I know, it's not sience, but maybe just a possibility...

Adler

For comparison: two helmets of IR 152 Sachsen Coburg Gotha:

[poniatowski]

Thanks Tony!

Ron
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[Lost Skeleton]

Though Marcel's wonderful helmet is Königreich Sachsen, take a closer look at that Land Kokarde. The center is black and I see traces of yellow paint in the center ring, indicative of Großherzogtümer Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach (IR 94). The serrated edge is entirely appropriate for S-W-E. A Sachsen Kokarde would follow the color scheme white-green-white.

Chas
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[Tony & Kaiser]

Boy do I feel stupid. I never even looked at the Kokarde.....
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[poniatowski]

All in all, I think it's agreed, you made a good purchase and have a beautiful helmet for your collection.

Ron
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I really do need to know more about this....

[Lost Skeleton]

[911car]

Here are two Sachsen-Weimar helmets. See the cockades. On the reserve helmet, the yellow central ring is almost completely gone but traces of the paint are still visible . On the active helmet, the cockade is made of brass, the colour of which makes the central ring.

[vonkluck14]

Thanks for all your professional comments guys!

The helmet together with the newspaper has been given a nice place in the showcase!

[spikeymikey]

A very nice helmet indeed - well done!!

But why did you think it might be Vulkanfiber? I only ask because I've never seen a fiber helmet with a tan interior and stitching present. I thought they were always black, (or with some interior covering) and formed without the need for stitching? Is this the case?

......and Bruno, - bloody hell!! Fantastic pair!
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[spikeymikey]

A very nice helmet indeed - well done!!

But why did you think it might be Vulkanfiber? I only ask because I've never seen a fiber helmet with a tan interior and stitching present. I thought they were always black, (or with some interior covering) and formed without the need for stitching? Is this the case?
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[joerookery]

I don't know anything about stitching maybe Brian can help.

I did feel the need to add this old issue as an example.



For years I was told by every collector I knew that this cockade was just wrong. I did not think so but I had no proof. So I did a bunch of research which eventually found its way into the Handbook of Imperial Germany. This represents the older colors for the grand duchy but it took a while for me to figure it out. I guess my point is everyone can give you opinions and they are all valuable however, in the final product it is you that decides. Research can be fun!
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www.pickelhauben.net
The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

[b.loree]

All vulcan fibre helmets are stitched exactly like the regular leather ones. Tan interior suggests to me that perhaps this may be a laquered filz helme with painted interior. I have worked on one of those. B
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[spikeymikey]

All of 'em, Brian? I had a really nice officer helmet in VF a while back and I'm sure it had no stitching in the crown part?
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[Tony & Kaiser]

[spikeymikey]

Me too. Leather inside without a doubt. But that exterior does look incredibly consistent and fiber-like but surely it's a completely leather shell?

That's why I asked that question in the first place. I couldn't see how it could be Vulkanfiber from the interior shots?

And Von Kluck - is that a shellac run inside on the rear visor where it attaches to the shell? (The black stuff that seems to be present there in the top photo of the second batch you posted?)
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[b.loree]

OK I am all wet here....first obviously this is a leather shell. Second, regarding vulcan fibre helmets I am refering to the visors. They are stitched on. We also see vulcan fibre visors stitched on to leather shells as well as card board visors stitched on. B
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