Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

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SkipperJohn
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Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:17 pm

I am seeking assistance in finding the approximate dates of these two Schirmmutzen. I originally purchased them believing that they were used in the Franco-Prussian War, but now I am questioning that. Both are Model 1867 and are prior to 1897. Neither one has ever had a Reich's Kokarde attached.

The first is a Prussian infantry officer's Schirmmutze. It has the very short and stubby front visor and a twin ring officer's Kokarde (instituted in 1867). The piping on this is very thin and the band width is about 1/2 of the total:

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The second is a Baden officer's Schirmmutze. It also has the stubby visor. The piping on this is very robust and is much thicker than that of the above Prussian. The band is almost twice as wide as that of the Prussian:

Image

Any help is appreciated.

John :)
Last edited by SkipperJohn on Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Glennj » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:32 am

John,

It certainly appears from period photographs that the fashion and style changed throughout the period. In the 1870s for instance the caps seem almost like those of the Russian army, the 1880s saw caps becoming increasingly taller and more cylindrical in construction and a reversion in the 1890s to a much lower form. I would hazard the opinion that your Prussian cap is from the mid to late 1890s whereas the Baden is probably somewhat earlier.

As your Baden cap has no additional Prussian cockade on the cap band as required by regulations, I assume it is a private purchase example of a Portepee-Unteroffizier.

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Glennj » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:07 am

the 1880s saw caps becoming increasingly taller and more cylindrical in construction
A great example from around 1880. Sekonde-Lieutenant Ludolf v. Lüderitz of 1. Hannoversches Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 9 in Metz.

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:15 pm

Glennj wrote:John,

As your Baden cap has no additional Prussian cockade on the cap band as required by regulations, I assume it is a private purchase example of a Portepee-Unteroffizier.

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Glenn,
I know that this is an older thread, but I was trying to do some research so I didn't look so stupid. What Prussian cockade? Baden wore a black-red-yellow national cockade from 1848 (or close) to 1851, but I can't find any mention that Baden wore a Prussian and Baden cockade at the same time. Where did it go, on the band or the crown? What years did they do that?
Any help is appreciated.

John :?

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:43 pm

John this was the result of the military convention between Baden and Prussia concluded on 25 November 1870. The result was that for officers, a Baden and Prussian Kokarde were worn concurrently on the band, I believe until the Reich's Kokarde introduction in 1897. In this way Barden was able to retain some of its identity instead of giving it all to Prussia. It was rather unique.
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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:08 am

Tony without Kaiser wrote:John this was the result of the military convention between Baden and Prussia concluded on 25 November 1870. The result was that for officers, a Baden and Prussian Kokarde were worn concurrently on the band, I believe until the Reich's Kokarde introduction in 1897. In this way Barden was able to retain some of its identity instead of giving it all to Prussia. It was rather unique.
Thanks Tony.
How were they mounted? Was the Baden below the Prussian, but still in the red band area?
Does anybody have a photo of this????

If the Prussian cockade was added after November 1870 and lasted until 1897 when it was replaced with the Reich's cockade, then this must be earlier than 1870. Is that correct??

John :o

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:13 am

They were worn one on top of each other, both on the red band. I cannot confirm who was "on top".

As Glenn indicated, it only applied to officers, so possibly yours is a private purchase example of a Portepee-Unteroffizier.
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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:39 pm

Tony without Kaiser wrote:They were worn one on top of each other, both on the red band. I cannot confirm who was "on top".

As Glenn indicated, it only applied to officers, so possibly yours is a private purchase example of a Portepee-Unteroffizier.
Thanks. That certainly helps narrow it down.

John :)

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Glennj » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:00 pm

Tony, John,

the Baden cockade was worn above the Prussian. This from the 1895 Prussian officers' dress regulations. See the Officer from the Baden contingent in this photo.

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http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... 17&t=11020

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by Glennj » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:45 pm

Here is a good example. From a 1988 article in the Zeitschrift für Heereskunde. Captioned as a Stabsarzt Dr. Ropertz from an 1887 album commemorating the retirement of the XIV. Armeekorps corps Surgeon, Generalarzt Dr. von Beck. In fact, Stabsartz Dr. August Ropertz, a former battalion medical officer in Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 110 died in 1882.

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:12 am

Thanks Glenn.
I saw that photo on the forum, and even made a comment that it brought up a couple of questions on my Baden Schirmmutze. I guess that I just never put two and two together.
Now that I know the dates for the use of double State Kokarden, and that they were used only by officers, I believe that a Portepee-Unteroffizier Schirmmutze is the best possible answer. I have looked at the band and crown of this Schirmmutze, under a magnifying glass, and can find no indication that it ever had an additional Kokarde.
I know that Bremen wore both Bremen and Prussian Kokarden at one time for both enlisted and officers, I believe that Hamburg and Luebeck did too, and now I know that Baden did as well. Were there any others?

John :?

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Re: Help with determining dates of Schirmmutzen

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:13 am

New research indicates that I may have been barking up the wrong tree this entire time when it comes to my "Baden" Schirmmutze. There appears to be evidence that this Schirmmutze is not from Baden at all --- it's from Lippe-Detmold.

Image

I have seen photographs of a Schirmmutze with this same Kokarde and marked to Lippe:

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I was told that the Baden Kokarde would have a gold center and the ring would be red, the opposite of this:

Image

Here is a Baden enlisted, private purchase, Kokarde for comparison:

Image

I am open to all opinions on this. I am really confused now.

John :o

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