WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

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ukturkcollector
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WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:26 am

Described as a "WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic", is listed on this website :
http://www.tommysmilitaria.com/shop.php Is stated to be "WW1 Original German supplied 1916 dated Field tunic as worn by a Turkish soldier. Has Turkish inventory and other Turkish markings. Clear German date stamp."

This appears to be an 8-button white canvas tunic with fall down collar, without piping. It also has two covered hip-pockets.

The following large ink stamps appear inside, reading:

"INVENTAR D5_834" within a thick rectangular boarder, one of the numbers is not very clear but may be a '2'?

The next black ink block stamp is "(_letter not clear_).A.VI. 1916

Finally, a not very convincing red ink stamped star and crescent over the number 243 [in Arabic Numerals]. The star is oversized, and a six-point one. This was no longer being used in the Ottoman Empire by WW1, and normally star and crescent stampings when these do appear on Imperial Army Equipment, these are composed of a large C-crescent, with the horn-ends connecting with a smaller proportioned five-point star.

For comparison, the Imperial War Museum, does have an actual version of a German-contact tunic made for the Ottoman Imperial Army in WW1 http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30100201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; this has six dish buttons down the front, and is a "Lightweight grey single-breasted pocket less tunic style coat with stand and fall collar". It also has blue piping on the collar.

This looks to be a German? jacket, which has had stampings added to it - which are not correct for the period.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Mon Oct 12, 2015 5:30 pm

On Gunboards forums I have found this description for the "INVENTAR D5_834" within a thick rectangular boarder, one of the numbers is not very clear but may be a '2'? making on this Tommy's Militaria jacket, that:
"In._____" which could be the short for the Romanian word "Inventar" [inventory] followed by a serial number. These markings are seen on Romanian military equipment?

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:23 pm

The 'Ottoman' markings on this jacket: Poorly formed small red ink crescent, with a large six-point star (also in red ink), and three large Arabic numbers - '243', in red ink, are not correct, and have been made up.
1. The Ottoman Imperial Army, did not mark clothing items, except where tailor marks appear, and these can be in Ottoman, or in a number of European makers, especially in Constantinople where a number of foreign-owned firms continued to operate even after the war started.
2. On equipment items, the Ottomans added a sequential number in Arabic, or 'Imperial Army' in Ottoman script. In the case of German companies, these did add Ottoman translations of their company names and even the Sultan's Tugra over the contract date (in the case of the Turkish C96 Mauser pistols).
3. Star and crescent stamps do appear on various items of Turkish equipment, but the star is either encompassed by the crescent (such as the lids of the contract binoculars case, likely made in Autumn 1917: the DF 8 X 24 (ser. no 801.111), made for the Turkish army in WWI, by CARL ZEISS JENA); again this stamp was added during manufacture by the German maker.
4. Frequently seen are round black in block stamps, about 2-3cm across filled with Ottoman script, and a early date, and these are government officials' seals used on imperial documents and frequently seen on equipment such as the 1909 Mauser contract ammunition pouches.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:25 pm

The photos on the website http://www.tommysmilitaria.com/shop.php also show the jacket with a cloth back belt stitched to the back waist-line, closed with a button - is this a typical feature of WW1 German tunics?

On Ottoman soldiers tunics in WW1, there was a internal pull-cord, used to adjust the jacket to the wearer's waist.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:39 pm

This belt - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Original-Ott ... Swl9BWGPUS looks to be from the same dealer, as the jacket, and is stated to be "Original Ottoman Turkish World War 1 Army Leather Belt and Buckle. WW1"; the buckle looks to be original, however, the belt is WW2 German, or possibly post-WW2 East German.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:00 pm

This item on the sellers' website http://www.tommysmilitaria.com/shop.php described as "WWI OTTOMAN TURKISH ARMY LEATHER AMMUNITION BANDOLIER BELT", is actually a later version made for the Arab Legion, and early Jordanian Army, who use a near identical ammunition waist bandolier (to the types seen in the Ottoman Army in WW1, with an added over-the-shoulder bandolier set with 'Y' harness (which is the version shown on the Tommy's Militaria website.

This IWM photograph http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205213375, shows recruits to the British Dunsterforce, 1917-1919 who are Persian Police at Resht, and clearly shows the widespeard regional use of identical types of ammunition waist bandolier, the same as that used by Ottoman Turkish soldiers in WW1.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:40 pm

ukturkcollector wrote:Finally, a not very convincing red ink stamped star and crescent over the number 243 [in Arabic Numerals]. The star is oversized, and a six-point one. This was no longer being used in the Ottoman Empire by WW1, and normally star and crescent stampings when these do appear on Imperial Army Equipment, these are composed of a large C-crescent, with the horn-ends connecting with a smaller proportioned five-point star.
This particular fake clothing stamp appears identical to the crescent and equally large six-point star German proof-markings that are seen on the blade back, near the cross-guard of the Turkish M1890 Bayonet; this particular set of proof-marks were only used by German manufactures of the 1890 Turkish contract bayonets. The only other use of the crescent and smaller six-point star, was on pre-1844 Turkish flags, in particular the Ottoman Navy flag.

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by ukturkcollector » Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:30 pm

I have added/updated this page on my website http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/ww1-tur ... ern-fakes/ looking at WW1 TURKISH ARMY: UNIFORM MANUFACTURE & MODERN FAKES

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by flasheart » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:30 am

OK, now I know who to talk to find some genuine Turkish WW1 items! Is there anything real available around the world? Where is it?

Mike

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Re: WW1 Original Ottoman Turkish worn 1916 dated Tunic

Post by Bungo » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:22 am

Fascinating! Your knowledge of arcane Ottoman stuff knows no bounds.

Do you read or speak Turkish?

The sum total of my Ottoman collection is two Gallipoli Stars: one Enamelled German version marked BB&Co, and a painted original Turkish one. I was nearly taken in by a very convincing Ottoman pilots badge a month or two back in ebay, actually placed a bid and was outbid. The same seller posted another very authentic looking one a month later, as these are rare as hen's teeth I can only assume they are quality reproductions.

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