What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

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What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:07 pm

This pair of uniforms are being offered for sale:

http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details ... asp?lot=74;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and

http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details ... asp?lot=75" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the correct ID, a WW1 (post 1915) Oberstleutnat (Lieut. Colonel) in Kürassier-Regt. von Seydlitz (4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7, in the General Staff?

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:57 am

ukturkcollector wrote:This pair of uniforms are being offered for sale:

http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details ... asp?lot=74;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and

http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details ... asp?lot=75" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the correct ID, a WW1 (post 1915) Oberstleutnat (Lieut. Colonel) in Kürassier-Regt. von Seydlitz (4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7, in the General Staff?
Both uniforms have been attributed to Enver Pasha. However, it is highly unlikely that these have any connection with Enver Pasha. Firstly, even though he was in Germany for a short period in 1909, he was a Turkish military attaché, with the rank of Major, in the Imperial Ottoman Army. Secondly, as both uniforms appear to be post-1915, neither have the correct rank for Enver Pasha, as he had been promoted General in the Imperial Ottoman Army in 1914. This is a brief synopsis of Enver Pasha's rank appointments:
- Enver graduated from the Staff School in 1902 at the rank of Captain.
- On September 13, 1906, he was promoted to the rank of Major.
- Enver was sent to Berlin on March 5, 1909 as the Turkish military attaché in Germany.
- After April 24, 1909, Enver returned to Istanbul and replaced Mustafa Kemal Bey as the Chief of Staff of the Liberation Army.
- On June 10, 1912, he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
- On December 18, 1913, he was promoted to the rank of Colonel.
- On January 5, 1914 he became a General and appointed as the Minister of War.

Problematically, both German uniforms for sale in the action, given current market prices would normally sell around £1,200-£1,500 per set. However, having now attributed these to being 'Enver Pasha's' (which is highly doubtful), are now being valued at 40,000TL each (over £9,300).

These both appear original uniforms, and there are other examples of German Army Staff Officer uniforms, on display at the Askeri Museum, Istanbul (see 'Field Grey Uniforms of the German Army on Ottoman Fronts in the First World War' http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). These are more examples of German Army Staff Officer uniforms that can be found in Turkey; which at some point, were added into the Enver Pasha collection.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:39 pm

Here is a post on this website looking at Kürassier-Regt. von Seydlitz (4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7 http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5598" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:50 pm

This is actually one of Enver Pasha's Uniform(s) http://www.askerimuze.tsk.tr/INGILIZCE/ ... bject1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, and this is a standard Imperial Army Officer's tunic for a General.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:57 pm

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/ottoma ... sCatID=385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a April 2015 new report, when the collection containing the German Uniforms, were first organised to be auctioned in Turkey. The entire auction had initially been scheduled to take place on April 5, 2015 but was cancelled when the Military Museum in Istanbul expressed an interest in purchasing the entire collection according to press reports. However, apparently negotiations fell through and the auction has now been rescheduled for June 27, 2015.

It is interesting to note, that this report specifically states that among the auction items, is 'his uniform'. However, this appears to be the WW1 (post 1915) Oberstleutnat (Lieut. Colonel) in Kürassier-Regt. von Seydlitz (4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7, in the General Staff uniform.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by joerookery » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:52 am

Chris I was asked by someone to make sense of this whole thing. I think you have laid out very well. I don't know what I do not know about uniforms. U
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the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:22 pm

joerookery wrote:Chris I was asked by someone to make sense of this whole thing. I think you have laid out very well. I don't know what I do not know about uniforms. U
Thanks Jo. Added to this problem of the uniforms' ID, I have had other people correspond with me pointing out that there is a widely published photographic collection of Enver Pasha, throughout his career, and that he is only pictured in Ottoman uniforms. To sum-up, the pair of uniforms being offered in the auction are not related/cannot be related to Enver Pasha. They are in fact, a matching pair of original WW1 German uniforms for a post 1915 Oberstleutnat (Lieut. Colonel) in Kürassier-Regt. von Seydlitz (4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7, in the General Staff. These are not uniforms that Enver Pasha would have worn in WW1, as by that point he was a General in the Ottoman Imperial Army, and the Ottoman political wartime leader.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ccj » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:23 pm

The boards could be generals rank, it's hard to tell.
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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:15 am

ccj wrote:The boards could be generals rank, it's hard to tell.
My understanding (and Chip would be a better judge), is that if these were General's Shoulder cords, these would be a mix of gold cords and silver cords (with the state colors i.e. Prussia = black silk flecks). As well, the General's boards would be backed in red. Whereas the cords on the actual uniform (both ones http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sp?lot=74; and http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... asp?lot=75) appear to be silver only, and have the correct backing for an officer in the Kürassier which is yellow (for 4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7) corded with white, which was specific to the Kürassier.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:16 am

ccj wrote:The boards could be generals rank, it's hard to tell.
My understanding (and Chip would be a better judge), is that if these were General's Shoulder cords, these would be a mix of gold cords and silver cords (with the state colors i.e. Prussia = black silk flecks). As well, the General's boards would be backed in red. Whereas the cords on the actual uniform (both ones http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sp?lot=74; and http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/details" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... asp?lot=75) appear to be silver only, and have the correct backing for an officer in the Kürassier which is yellow (for 4.Magdeburgisches) Nr.7) corded with white, which was specific to the Kürassier.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by Chip M. » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:30 pm

Unfortunately, the links to the photos are now gone.

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Re: What is the ID for this WW1 German Uniform

Post by ukturkcollector » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:15 pm

Chip M. wrote:Unfortunately, the links to the photos are now gone.
A PDF of the sales catalogue can be found still on the website http://www.istanbulmuzayede.com/PDFLER/38.pdf PG 51 & 53 (German tunic with German 15 Oberstleutnat (Lieut. Colonel) in Kürassier-Regt.). There are some more shoulder cords, PG 54; and epaulettes on PG 56, but these are proper Turkish ones for a General.

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