Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

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Sandmann
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Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:28 pm

Hi all,

I‘m happy to introduce a new Helmet.
Normally I was just looking for 2 officer Star-Studs for an artillery Officer-Helmet I’ve won at an auction (I will introduce it when it arrives).
But when I was looking for these Star-Studs this nice little Helmet crossed my way for only 450 € :bravo:
ImageImageImageImageImage
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It looks like a Helmet for an Officer of a prussian Train-Regiment, it is nearly identical with an infantry Helmet but with round chinscales instead of flat ones.
The chinscales are very special, they are for a M91-Helmet but the Helmet doesn’t have the same Mountingsystem with the faux Rosettes. Also the Spike doesn’t have a bayonet lock, so it is no M15 Officer-Helmet.
Image
Because of the chinscales I have doubts that it could be just a Parts-Helmet, but it could be plausible that it have been worn originally in this combination. There are out-of-round scratches on the outsides, which seems to be from the Rosettes when the chinscales have been turned up and down. I guess the scratches scratches should be circular if they have been used on a regular M91 Helmet before.
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Further the dust-shadow around the metall parts, like Star-studs or Eagle, looks like they haven’t been loosened at anytime.Image
Last I started to look into my prussian „Rangliste“-Book from 1909 and I was surprised that the name „Nürnberger“ was not very common. Just 2 Officers with that name served in the prussian army anno 1909 and even better, 1 of them served as a Lt. in the 3rd Brandenburg Train-Bat., in the 2nd Division (which could explain the roman II inside the Helmet).
ImageImage
At the end I think it could be an original Helmet.
Unfortunately the Shellac-Surface has a lot of Craquelé and the Liner is missing, but for that price I won‘t cry :D
Please let me know your thoughts about the Helmet.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Amybellars » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:23 pm

You got a bargain

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by aicusv » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:04 pm

"they (chin scales) are for a M91-Helmet but the Helmet doesn’t have the same Mountingsystem with the faux Rosettes" How are they removed? Are the rosettes separate pieces?
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by 911car » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:31 pm

Sandy,
This is an oddity! I would have thought these enlisted chinscales have nothing to do on an officer helmet and are a postwar, fantasy addition... till I saw you did find a Train officer in the name of the helmet owner. Either this is a remarkable coincidence, or these chinscales were actually a period adaptation. Train units were indeed known for frequently adopting non-regulation clothing and equipment items, according to JL Larcade...

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by kaiser » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:26 am

Thats what you cal a low cost helmet 😁😁
Makes a good 2020 starter😉😉

Jonas

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Prussian Garde » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:29 am

A great way to start the year! A beautiful helmet indeed
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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:54 am

aicusv wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:04 pm
"they (chin scales) are for a M91-Helmet but the Helmet doesn’t have the same Mountingsystem with the faux Rosettes" How are they removed? Are the rosettes separate pieces?
Thank you all for your comments :)

The Rosettes are normal Officer-Rosettes with cotter.

I also thought more it would be a Parts-Helmet before I found the name in the Rangliste-Book and that it was an uncommon name. The name Nürnberger sounds not like a rare name, but now my doubts are not completely gone but I think it is plausible.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:42 am

911car wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:31 pm
Sandy,
This is an oddity! I would have thought these enlisted chinscales have nothing to do on an officer helmet and are a postwar, fantasy addition... till I saw you did find a Train officer in the name of the helmet owner. Either this is a remarkable coincidence, or these chinscales were actually a period adaptation. Train units were indeed known for frequently adopting non-regulation clothing and equipment items, according to JL Larcade...
I now investigated some more Rangliste-Books and found out that he started his career as an Infantry-Officer.
Maybe this could explain the uncommon Chinscales:
In 1904 a Lt. Henri Nürnberger served in the Hanover infantry-Reg. No. 77 (Officer-Pat.: 22.5.00 F)
In 1907 I found the same Lt. Nürnberger in the Brandenburg Train Battalion No. 3 (Officer-Pat.: 22.5.00 F)
In 1909 still in the Brandenburg Train Battalion No. 3 (Officer-Pat.: 22.5.00 F)
In 1913 he was promoted to Ob.Lt. Nürnberger but still in the Brandenburg Train Battalion No. 3 (Officer-Pat.: 27.1.10 Ji)
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by argonne » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:51 am

Hi Sandy,

I will tell you something interesting. Your guy, Leutnant Henri Nürnberger is already mentioned in the ERL of 1907 in the 1. Eskadron of the Train Bataillon 3, with the same officer patent "22.5.00 F"

I tried to track him in the 1902 ERL and I did not found him at the TB3, but.....at the JR77 (Celle) in the 4. Companie. He has the exact same officer Patent number (22.5.00 F), so there are absolutely no doubts that this is the same officer.
I could read that his first name was Henri, because there is a second Leutnant in the JR77 in the year 1902 with the name Nürnberger (maybe his brother) with first name Hermann and officer patent number 27.1.97 A8a. Hermann was in the 1.Kompanie and probably older than Henri).

This moving from JR77 to TB3 (between 1902 and 1907) is probably the reason of this unusual addition of curved chinscales, because Henri Nürnbergers helmet first wore flat infantery chinscales in the JR77.

Further, in the ERL of the years 1911 and 1913, Henri Nürnberger is mentioned at the 2. Eskadron of the TB3 as an Oberleutnant with the officer Patent number 27.1.10 Ji

And at least, one find him a last time in the ERL 1914-18 at the Westfälische Train-Abteilung Nr.7 at a rank of Rittmeister. He retired from this unit on the 19.6.14 and died on the 12.3.1920 at the rank of Rittmeister a.D. (außer Dienst = retired).

Philippe
:wink:

PS: sorry to be to lazy to make some pictures of the ERLs, I have no scanner, only a bigger Olympus camera, and it takes a lot of time to rework and load the picts... :cry:
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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by argonne » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:54 am

Very good, Sandy! All is matching, you have the same informations as mine =D>

Philippe
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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:50 pm

Thx Philippe, that helps me a lot :D
I was not sure where he stayed after 1913, because the latest „Rangliste“-Book I can use for investigation is from 1914 and there is no notice that he switched to the „Westfälisches Train“ in that book. That’s why I didn‘t get the link to this „Rittmeister“ Nürnberger
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by coert65 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:26 am

Very, very nice addition to your collection Sandy, good history and a steal for only 450 euro!!

Congratulations with this beauty! :bravo: :bravo:

Greetings, Coert. :thumb up:

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:09 am

Thx Coert :D
Concerning the History I investigated further and found some more informations on ancestry.de. I assume that the helmet is plausible and therefore I would like to introduce my researched history of the owner Hugo Karl Henri Nürnberger. He survived the war, but unfortunately he died early at the age of 41.
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Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by edwin » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:33 pm

Great helmet.

Regards,

Edwin

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:31 pm

Thank you very much Edwin :)
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by JohnM » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:50 pm

Very nice helmet Sandy at an excellent price! That being said, I think someone tinkered with the helmet since you can see that someone tried to repair the leather liner. I don't believe those chinscales are original to that helmet. Have the rosette prongs been bent a lot or are they bent incorrectly? That is one way to tell.

I would definitely shop around for a pair of curved officers chinscales for the rosette mounting.You can then use the M91 chinscales on a different helmet or sell them for a good price.

John

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:02 am

JohnM wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:50 pm
Very nice helmet Sandy at an excellent price! That being said, I think someone tinkered with the helmet since you can see that someone tried to repair the leather liner. I don't believe those chinscales are original to that helmet. Have the rosette prongs been bent a lot or are they bent incorrectly? That is one way to tell.
I would definitely shop around for a pair of curved officers chinscales for the rosette mounting.You can then use the M91 chinscales on a different helmet or sell them for a good price.

John
Great point John :bravo:
You are right, I didnˋt remark the new part of the Leatherliner. I found a clean stiching, definitely not 100 Years old. The prongs of the Rosettes looks ok, but no washer has been used.
That means the owner of the Helmet could also be Herman Nürnberger. Don‘t know what I should do with the Helmet now :???:
Flat or curved chinscale would be both are right and wrong. The condition of the Helmet is not as good as that a completation would make sense, also the correct chinscale is not known. But because I'm pretty sure that the owner of one of the two brothers, so it don't feel right to use it as a parts donor.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by argonne » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:13 pm

Sandmann wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:02 am

That means the owner of the Helmet could also be Herman Nürnberger.
Sandy, the helmets of JR77 wore the Waterloo eagle since January 1899.
Henri Nürnberger served in the JR77 from 1896 till 1905/1906. His brother Hermann was obviously older so he may have started his military carreer in the JR77 at about 1893. Both brothers wore first a helmet with a classic eagle (without waterloo scroll) till January 1899. Maybe it is the first helmet of Henri in the JR77 and it has been reconverted this way in the TB3....There was no need for Hermann to wear some convex chinscales.

Philippe
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Re: Train-Officer Helmet with M91-Chinscales?

Post by Sandmann » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:36 pm

Hmm, I think I can definitely say that it is the Helmet of one of these brothers. I will keep the Helmet as is and investigate also the informations of his brother Hermann and enclose both informations to the Helmet for the next generation.
Thank you all for your thoughts :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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