Mystery Shako

Leather helmets worn by Jaeger, Technical troops etc.

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mignot
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Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:38 am

Hello!

Can anyone help me identify this mystery shako? I thought it was Russian, but the shako is made entirely of leather. Perhaps from one of the minor German states? I suspect post-Napoleonic.

Would appreciate any help!

Best,

Cole
The attachment shako 1.jpg is no longer available
The attachment Shako 2.jpg is no longer available
The attachment Shako 3.jpg is no longer available
shako 1.jpg

mignot
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:38 am

Shako 2.jpg

mignot
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:39 am

Shako 3.jpg

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:39 am

shako 4.jpg

aicusv
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by aicusv » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:29 pm

Sure looks Russian, it is possible that it maybe later than 1815?
Last edited by aicusv on Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fezzes frigidus es

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SkipperJohn
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:11 pm

This Tschako appears to be the standard Russian Kiver.
These were used in the Napoleonic Wars and beyond.
Normally these are found in fiber, but leather would not surprise me.
The only real oddity that I see are the lion heads holding the chinscales. I have not seen those before on a Russian Tschako.
The design is Russian. The characteristic bow in the bell crown is typical Russian. The front plate is Russian.
What are your concerns?
It is a beautiful piece!! :bravo:

John :)

aicusv
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by aicusv » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:01 pm

Around that same time period (1812-1813) US shakos were felt except for the artillery which were leather. IS it possible that the Russian had some troops that had leather and others in felt?
fezzes frigidus es

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kaiser
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by kaiser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:20 pm

Never seen sutch a tschako so i wil not be able to provide information on this one ,but what i can say is that it is stil in great shape and condition
Well done with tis find 👍👍👍

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:39 pm

Believe me this is shako fake. He has nothing to do with the Russian shako. Such three-flame grenades were attached to a cartridge bag
:thumbsdown:

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by aicusv » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:52 pm

It is my understanding that the 3 flame grenade was the Wappen for a grenadier.
http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napoleoni ... fantry.htm
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kaiser
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by kaiser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:34 pm

By reading and looking to added information by aicusv i cant see anything that would sugest it is a fake one
For me it looks legit

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:34 pm

I do not see any point in discussing this shako. Kiver has no relation to the Russian army. It's unclear what

aicusv
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by aicusv » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:34 pm

I'm not saying it is real - All I'm saying is to me it looks like a Russian Grenadier shako. If the construction is incorrect or the materials used wrong, or that it is assembled incorrectly, well I don't know.
fezzes frigidus es

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Sandmann
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sandmann » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:54 am

These kind of Tschako in Leather was also used by the bavarian Militia (Bürgerwehr). Their Tschako have had the golden Chinscale and the Lionheads on the sides. Without the Grenadier-Plate I would be sure but I don‘t know if they have had Grenadiers and I did not see this Plate on their Tschakos.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sandmann » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:18 am

Sorry, I have to change my mind. The Chinscale and the Lionheads looks different :?
https://www.museum-digital.de/st/index. ... oges=11279
Best wishes, Sandy

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Sandmann
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sandmann » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:50 am

Here are Pictures of original russian „Kiver“ from the time of Napoleonic War. These look similar but not identical. The shape is a bit different and they don‘t have these Lionheads on the sides. I found these Lionheads only on a „Bayern““and a „Württemberg“ Tschako... a German design?

http://www.keithrocco.com/inventory/det ... ductid=357
https://www.facebook.com/17336193280421 ... =3&theater
Best wishes, Sandy

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:50 pm

Sandmann wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:18 am
Sorry, I have to change my mind. The Chinscale and the Lionheads looks different :?
https://www.museum-digital.de/st/index. ... oges=11279
Sorry, but this is also not a Russian shako.

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b.loree
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by b.loree » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:46 pm

Interesting discussion about a helmet that I know nothing about. When you have time Sergei could you post a picture of a "real Russian" shako so we could see what an original looks like? Thanks
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the discussion! All very interesting points. It seems that this is probably not a Russian shako, which begs the question what is it? I wonder if this was something made for the centennial of 1812? I do not think that it is a fake meant to defraud anyone, as it does not conform to Russian regulations. And in my opinion, it is honestly aged. I have owned several 19th century shakos, as well as older reproductions, and this one has a very honest "feel" to it. The liner shows wear in the right places, etc. Is it 200 years old, or just a 100 year old piece in bad condition, I cannot say definitively. It is very well made, however. Entirely hand-sewn. This of course, is just my opinion, others are encouraged to express their opinions too!

I should add that I am not trying to sell the shako (I am rather keen on it), so I will not be offended by any comments in regards to its authenticity. I am just curious about your thoughts. It's a head-scratcher.

Best wishes,

Cole

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Sandmann
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sandmann » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:25 am

Sergei1877 wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:50 pm
Sandmann wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:18 am
Sorry, I have to change my mind. The Chinscale and the Lionheads looks different :?
https://www.museum-digital.de/st/index. ... oges=11279
Sorry, but this is also not a Russian shako.
Maybe, but I did not say it is a russion Tschako, I just showed examples of it..
Best wishes, Sandy

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:19 am

In Europe, after the Napoleonic wars, especially in the armies of German lands, Russian style predominated in uniform. Therefore, these shako are given out as Russians. In Russia there are also disputes between reenactors and historians on the Napoleonic wars as exactly the Russian army's shako looked during the war of 1812-1814. Since there are very few of them left

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:24 am

All exhibits are represented by the Military History Museum of Artillery of the Engineer and Signal Corps

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Sergei1877
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:28 am

this is a very good copy of the shako for the war of 1812

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:34 am

photo from the museum. But maybe it's a shako of 1817


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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by Sergei1877 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:02 am

photo from the reconstruction of the Borodino battle. Life Guards Semyonov Regiment

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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by aicusv » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:18 am

Truly the best looking shako of the period.
fezzes frigidus es

mignot
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by mignot » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:00 pm

This one looks somewhat similar as well, and not Russian.
https://www.rubylane.com/item/802481-10 ... Napolxe9on

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b.loree
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Re: Mystery Shako

Post by b.loree » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:47 pm

Many thanks for your posting all those pictures Sergei, much appreciated. I have learned much. :thumb up:
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