M15 steel helmet Wappen

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M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:23 pm

I finally put together another article/list on this subject. The idea is to determine which Wappen actually did have M15 variants.

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/M15%20Steel.html

Please send me your pictures and corrections -- I can use the advice.
Last edited by joerookery on Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gustaf » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:47 pm

Great article Joe,
I have but one type of M15 Wappen, and you already have a photo of it.
Gus
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Post by 911car » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:27 pm

Very very nice article Joe. I could send some pictures. How about a Mecklemburg helmet with the correct spike?...
Bruno

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:12 am

That is a stunning Shako, very nice!
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Post by KAGGR 1870 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:26 am

Hello
Here are two pics of the 10th artillery regiment wappen
You can use this pics
Regards

Image

Image
Bernard

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Post by monfort » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:08 pm

Hi

Sorry Joe, I don't collect these plates..... :cry:
Best regards

Eric

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Post by JR92 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:27 pm

Hello Joe,
That's mine again.
The awful chinstrap copy of the first photo is in a trash can.
Best regards

Image
Best regards

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Post by JR92 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:42 pm

Hello Joe,
This one in Fort de la Pompelle. Larcade's book Nr 2
Best regards

Image
Best regards

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Post by joerookery » Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:12 pm

Bruno keeps sending in wonderful pictures. He is always stressing to us how important condition is. These examples he sent for the article are amazing. The Dragoon looks like it's pretty well new.

ImageImage

ImageImage
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:01 pm

Here is a rather scarce 82mm Sachsen Wappen only worn by:

Ulanen-Regts 17, 18, and 21;
Kgl. Sächs. Husaren-Regts 18, 19, & 20;
Kgl. Sächs. Telegraphen-Bataillon Nr.7;
3rd Komp of Luftschiffer-Bataillon Nr.2;
3rd Komp of Flieger-Bataillon Nr.1; and
2nd Komp Kraftfahr-Bataillon.

This Tschako belongs to my good friend Pete, but seeing as intellectual property laws apply in this case to the photo, not the actual item, and that the Tschako was here, and so was he when I took the photo, (out-cold on my couch) I think it will hold up in court. Image

Image
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Post by dave mosher » Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:29 am

Joe:

Regimentals has a gray Mecklenburg Schwerin jaeger tschako for sale. Perhaps he would allow a photo or two...

By the way, the subject of this article and your arrangement is top-notch!!!

Regards

Dave

P.S. I was just scanning German evil-bay and saw there is a gray Bavarian jaeger tschako for sale and noticed that you don't have one listed in your article...

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Post by joerookery » Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:42 pm

Thanks Dave -- I only miss spelled Tony's name at least three times -- sheesh -- I learn a lot in this. Let's take a look at these Bavarian Wappen for a minute.

You are right I do not have one in my article. What I was trying to do was eliminate some of the clutter by only listing one helmet that had a plate of that size. For instance 95 mm Prussian Wappen were used on several helmets. The 82 mm Saxon that Tony posted was used by a few units. I only intended to one posting per-size. Bavarians are just tough. It is my understanding and I could well be wrong, that in the
m15 plates there are only two Bavarian sizes. The big ones for mounted troops at a width of 145 mm. and the smaller ones weighing in at 110 mm. There seems to be a significant amount of variation in the smaller ones however, in general an infantry helmet should have the same sized plate as a gray shako. I have yet to be convinced that there is one with vines as reported by Orrick. It doesn't make sense. 8-) This is of course research and opinions!
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Post by dave mosher » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:07 pm

Joe:

I think the bavarian jaeger plate is smaller and a more "compressed" shape. You make the call...

Dave

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Post by b.loree » Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:15 pm

Excellent thread Joe. Thanks for starting it! Brian
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Post by joerookery » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:34 am

I think the bavarian jaeger plate is smaller and a more "compressed" shape. You make the call...
I tried to figure out the entire Bavarian thing recently in a thread called Bavarian vines. Minnesota's Slim sent us three measurements of artillery and infantry plates and all three had different measurements. They were the "compressed" style.

Seibold on page 110 through 111 gives a detailed description of shakos and lists every measurement under the sun except the size of a Wappen. They look the same but could indeed be smaller. We really need to find someone who has both in their collection.
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Post by JR92 » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:18 pm

Hello,

Beautiful !
According to me, one of the best in the model 15 !
\:D/
Best regards

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Post by joerookery » Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:46 pm

Another previously undocumented example -- this one from Germany.

Image
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:58 pm

joerookery wrote:Another previously undocumented example -- this one from Germany.
Probably beacuse it should not exist. Why would the Unteroffizier Schule wear an M15? I vote fabrication.
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Post by joerookery » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:25 am

I really don't have a dog in this fight I would just like to know other opinions. Why couldn't they have an M15? I don't know much about the schools once the war started. I don't have any pictures. This is about prewar --
The Non-Commissioned Officer.
Non-commissioned Officers (NCO) came from two sources, either promoted from the ranks or having gone through the NCO training schools. Students graduated from Volksschule at approximately the age of 14. Military service would not begin until age 17 when young men could be inducted into the Landsturm. In addition to work, there was an option of joining and NCO preparatory training school. There were nine such schools scattered throughout the empire. The preparatory school had a general curriculum with much attention paid towards physical development throughout the two-year course. Once graduated from the preparatory school pupils could go to a NCO school. Again, there were nine of these. The course lasted two years for preparatory school graduates or three years for those who joined the NCO school directly without having gone through the preparatory school. This was a purely military school, whose graduates were either 19 or 20 years old. Upon graduation, they had to contract to remain in the active Army for four years. Graduates were posted to the regiments with some coming out as sergeants and others as Gefreiter. These schools accounted for about 25% of all NCOs.

The NCOs promoted from the ranks, were generally those who had reenlisted. While there was no specific time in grade requirements for promotion, it was seldom done in less than two years. Annually the members of the new class were scrutinized and those expected to reenlist and be suitable as an NCO attended special instruction within the regiment.

In the reserve and Landwehr some selected soldiers were provided special training as aspirant Unteroffiziere. Promotions to the rank of sergeant and above were not done until mobilization. However, Vizefeldwebel could be bestowed on older trainees and those whose social position was in accordance with a higher rank.

One large advantage in being a noncommissioned officer is that it was a requirement for employment for many positions as clerks or shopkeepers.
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:36 am

I am not saying they would not, just that it waaaay to easy to slap together. Take any line M15 and slap on a Garde star and 'Voila!".
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Post by joerookery » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:34 am

A very interesting addition by Chip.


Image

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/M15%20Steel.html
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Post by joerookery » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:57 pm

And yet another variant from an anonymous German collector.


Image
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Bavarian frontplate w/screwposts found on a curassier helmet

Post by ww1czechlegion » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:12 pm

Here's a couple of shots of a Bavarian frontplate I recently aquired from a friend. It has the screw posts on the backside, with the rabbit-ear style nuts on the posts.

It came off my friend's currasier helmet which he got a lot of grief from everyone on eBay last summer, when he tried to sell it with this frontplate on it. It came that way out of the woodwork. He took this one off, and put an m15 Prussian eagle on it to make the helmet sell.

The helmet shell was not unit marked, as I remember seeing it.

Any thoughts on why this frontplate has this style attachement? I presume it was made that way for use on a metal helmet, the way it was originally found?

Alan



Image

Image
Last edited by ww1czechlegion on Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:32 pm

Ah ha! Alan, compare this Model 1896/1914 Haube:

http://kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh41.htm

With this M1915 Haube:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh42.htm

Look familiar?
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Post by ww1czechlegion » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:24 am

Yes, that's it Tony, many thanks! Those are a couple of absolutely spectacular helmets you have. It's great to see them and learn from your pics & descriptions!

Alan
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Post by joerookery » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:55 am

Thanks to Robert and Kube auction 112. We filled another hole.
Image
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:21 pm

Thanks to JR 92 for all of his help!

Image
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by JR92 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:27 pm

Thanks to JR 92
And thanks to the owner, Bade 110, who allowed to show photos of his helmet.
Best regards

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by weirdpyramid » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:24 pm

JR92 wrote:
Thanks to JR 92
And thanks to the owner, Bade 110, who allowed to show photos of his helmet.
Ohhhh... is this the one from Ebay.fr that was up for auction last week? its a beauty!!! =D> =D>

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by morel5000 » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:23 pm

Hi
I've been to Brussels today, here are two Marine battalion Shako M15 versions. One is "normal" M15. the other is an ersatz?
Enjoy..
Image
Image

PS: feel free to use the images in the article!

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Michel
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:47 pm

Article updated! Thank you very much. Let me know if your name is not on the contributors list.
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by rob6218 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:37 pm

Very impressive...makes me all atingle! :D

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Re:

Post by eltax » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:51 pm

joerookery wrote:Thanks to Robert and Kube auction 112. We filled another hole.
Image
Does anyone have more info on this wappen? I would be very grateful :)

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by drewlarge » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:49 pm

These past days I saw the 109th baden for sale on Ebay I think Germany...it is broken but it can be seen it is grey. Maybe some people can look. I did not save it.

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by eltax » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:56 pm

I have just bought this one... :D
Attachments
P1150297.JPG

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by Leigh Kitchen » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:35 am

I posted this a few days ago on a thread re a 1915 pattern Garde tschako, interest shown but no views expressed as yet It appears to be a steel wappen so I'll try posting here:

Does anyone have any views on this badge please?
Good or bad, could it be an insignia for an item other than headgear?
It's presumably a 1915 wappen, given the fact it's of magnetic metal, grey painted, has wire loops as per a wappen but given that the rays of the star actually over lapping the bandeau ( north / south, east / west )are the opposite configuration to the norm ( north west / south east, north east / south west ), is it actually a version of the Garde Jaeger / Schutzen Other Ranks wappen, that of a different unit, a pouch or shabraque ornament or similar, or an out & out fantasy item?
Any views as to what it is or whatever it is, whether it's from the period or a post imperial item please?
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001[1].jpg
002[1].jpg
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:21 am

I've got to try to find that older posting. This is a copy of what we have on the site and it comes from Jim Turinetti's research. I do remember seeing a variation on the original star but not on the rays. Love to get other opinions.
Image
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by Leigh Kitchen » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:12 am

Thanks, here's a link to the posting that I'd already posted on:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5838" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has examples of variations I was aware of from reading / seeing illustrations in the past - the variation in location of date / wording on the bandeau, two piece construction etc, but I just haven't seen the variation that I'm showing before.

My only other Garde star Wappen items are an officer's tshako minus wappen (which I'm looking to aquire ) & a very thin yellow metal wappen with a thin silver coloured coating on the obverse, "FUR KOENIG" between the upper rays, & flat split pins on the reverse, which I believe is a Hussar busby one.
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:43 pm

Why did I miss this thread!?? :???: VERY nicely done Joe (and all!). Joe, have you ever thought of taking your web pages and compiling them into a book? (yeah, I know, "Ron, you dope, it's been on the market for ten years now...")
To add to Tony's M-15 Unteroffizier Schule question, I have a Saxon marked to a US... came from AOK via ebay I believe.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:57 pm

Jim looked at this and commented. He corrected a few of my obvious errors including the diagram being dated 1806 instead of the correct 1860.
I think the variation in the Guard star that you've been discussing,
(variation on the sun rays and location of the elements of the banner) is a
case of manufacturing. Another place you see variations due to the
manufacturer is in the "Guard Eagle without the star." It should be an
eagle with a bow tie hilt on the sword and a miniature Guard Eagle on the
tip of the Scepter and the word "Koenig" on the eagle's chest. I have seen
(an own) multiple examples of eagles with an "S" curved hilt on the sword
and a pine cone on the tip of the scepter that I know are correct. I think
it can be attributed to the manufacturer misunderstanding the clothing
regulation or in the case of the Star, the manufacturer's hast to mass
produce the wartime items.
We beat the artichoke/chicken on a stick/bow tie/S-curve to death several years ago. I don't think it was ever catalogued as a picture guide of the variants.

Ron,

I think I will just keep it as a free resource. Thank you for your kind words but I think Tony's site is more helpful to the average guy. I just wrote some things down as they came to mind. As far as putting it in a book – I will pass. No matter what you do people criticize it. Professionally we used to refer to them as hyenas in the wood line. They stay out of the fire and criticize those that are in it. One person said very prominently that he would not contribute a penny that would find its way into my pocket. Do you now I don't think I've ever made money on a book. Never. And I don't want to make money on this. I have enough money. If we keep it free and open to everyone people will willingly contribute examples. Many people do that regularly. What is sad and unfortunate to me is that if/when there are examples in people's collections they do not offer them. I don't know why but there are people who do that. I don't mean requiring me to ask for a picture but rather a collector's push. I would prefer to share and I'm not trying to take credit for it. Some people do not agree. Anxious fears of copyright infringements have to be actionable – nothing on my website is. I don't physically own that many helmets and I can no longer hold the camera steady but maybe after this next book I will turn my attention back to the website. It needs some help. There seem to be a fair number of people who use it.
VR/Joe
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The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by poniatowski » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:33 pm

I can understand that Joe. Any way, you and Tony BOTH have wonderful web sites and both have helped me out as needed.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by Leone » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:31 pm

joerookery wrote:One person said very prominently that he would not contribute a penny that would find its way into my pocket.
probably envies :-k

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by Leigh Kitchen » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:09 pm

joerookery wrote:Jim looked at this and commented. He corrected a few of my obvious errors including the diagram being dated 1806 instead of the correct 1860.
I think the variation in the Guard star that you've been discussing,
(variation on the sun rays and location of the elements of the banner) is a
case of manufacturing. Another place you see variations due to the
manufacturer is in the "Guard Eagle without the star." It should be an
eagle with a bow tie hilt on the sword and a miniature Guard Eagle on the
tip of the Scepter and the word "Koenig" on the eagle's chest. I have seen
(an own) multiple examples of eagles with an "S" curved hilt on the sword
and a pine cone on the tip of the scepter that I know are correct. I think
it can be attributed to the manufacturer misunderstanding the clothing
regulation or in the case of the Star, the manufacturer's hast to mass
produce the wartime items.

Thanks , is this quote referring to the thread inclusive of the star that I've posted, or to earlier star discussion only please?
Is it likely / possible that "my" star is merely a manufacturers variation?
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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:21 pm

At the age of 76 the original collector Lector Orrick surfaced and made some insightful comments about the original listing from Kaiserzeit Magazine. He wrote this in 1980. That was 36 years ago. Amazing. I would ask each of you to take a look through this and see if we have missed some. It would be lovely to add to Lectors work.

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/M15%20Steel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by pickelhauben » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:56 am

Can the original post of m-15 plates be brought back to life ?

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:58 pm

???
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The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by pickelhauben » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:45 pm

Yes I click on the link and it comes up " no results found" .

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/M15%20Steel.html

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Re: M15 steel helmet Wappen

Post by joerookery » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:32 am

VR/Joe
www.pickelhauben.net
The British philosopher and historian R.G. Colligwood said, "it is not
the facts that are interesting in history, but the questions and their
answers - and these can never be fixed.

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