Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

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Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:20 pm

Greetings all! I'd like, if possible, to have some information, opinions, ideas, conclusions, fantasies and/or tall tales about the Wappen on my new possession, an FR33 or FR38 Fusiliers Pickelhaube. The Wappen seems unusual in the sense that it has "overlapping" feathers underneath the letters FR, instead of the more common "straight" ones.

The Wappen which is more copper coloured than brass coloured measures 108 mm high, from the lowest point of the tail feathers to the top point of the crown. This is far too tall for Jäger, Ulanen and pre-1903 Train where it measures 95 mm (thanks, Tony, I got this from Kaiser's Bunker), but a bit on the smallish side for an Infantry Line Eagle which tends to be more like 113-115 mm.

I know far too well that once you have found a rule you immediately find exceptions too (after 72 years on this earth I know the ins and outs of dire confusion - grin), so I rule out nothing - but I'm still at a loss which is, as my friends and family will immediately confirm, my normal state of affairs :D

Could anybody help me out? Like: is this a specific Wappen for (some) Fusiliers Regiments? Or is it simply one of those dozens of manufacturers' variations?

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:09 pm

Early M1895 made from Tombak. See:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pe/m1895.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They are very difficult to find.

Feathers below the cypher will vary, but it has the standard VVV Foot-Troops feathers on the tail below the chest that first appeared on the M1871.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:37 pm

Tony, I completely forgot about that particular paragraph in Kaiser's Bunker - although I did read it several times before, I simply didn't connect it with this particular Wappen! Thanks mate, this clears up a lot!

By now I'm also sure that it's an FR38. On the Hinterschirm, with the use of some saliva and a very strong, very white LED flashlight, I finally managed to decipher a few things, like on one half of the Schirm "1900" (not 1908!), "FR33" or "FR38" (in the bright LED light 38 suddenly looked much more likely), and a clearly differently stamped "II" which should indicate "Second garniture". On the other half (the other side of the spine) I found "38" which can't be anything else (I guess) than the Regiment number again - so FR38 it is.

I think we've sorted it out - at least for the time being, until I come up with another question :D

Thanks again mate, much appreciated!
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Sandmann » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:21 am

Maybe this is also interesting..it is in french but the comparison pictures are really good.

http://www.terraculturae.com/pages/casq ... -1895.html
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:58 am

Thanks, Sandy! French isn't too much of a problem for me, reading being easier than speaking! :thumb up:
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:41 pm

I carefully took the Wappen off, and here it is. The inside, to my surprise, is white/silver coloured, and the loops are kind of odd. If the obverse wasn't so extremely detailed (and I mean really extremely detailed) that I have no doubt about its authenticity, the reverse would make me worriedly scratch my head.

I've been away from collecting too long and I've never seen a Wappen like this anyway. I this "normal" for a tombak Wappen?

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Leone » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:44 pm

I'm sorry, but your plate is galvano copy

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Leone wrote:I'm sorry, but your plate is galvano copy
That's what I began to fear, Leone :cry: ! But I have to admit: it's a bloody good one! The perfect, extremely fine details had me fooled big time!

Oh, well... I'm still very happy with the Haube! I cleaned some dirt off the brass visor trim and the spike, carefully applied a dab of high quality shoe polish to the haube itself, buffed it with a piece of cloth to a soft shine... and voilà: the old lady is ready for the catwalk! Okay - as it turns out she's had a nose job (grin)... but at her age (117 years) she's allowed to and I don't love her any less for it :D
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Jaap,

I sent you a pm.

John :)

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by coert65 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:49 pm

I'm very sorry to hear this Jaap, I bought the helmet like this and never took the wappen off....
Coert.. :(

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:05 pm

No sweat, Coert :D ! We swapped our helmets "as they were", and I still think I got the best end of the deal (wide grin)!

No need for apologies, the helmet itself including the rear spine and the visor trim is a genuine, honest piece. I'm especially happy that yesterday I managed to read the stamps: FR38, 1900, II and 38.

Y'know... original markings and stamps aren't something one can buy from ebay and add to a piece (they either exist or they exist not :D ), but an original genuine Prussian "chicken" can be bought and added! I'm looking around already!

So: no worries, mate! We're both happy with the swap, and that's what counts!

Enjoy your dinner (if you haven't eaten yet), and have a fine evening!

Greetings,

Jaap.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by coert65 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:11 pm

Thanks Jaap, I felt really shitty when I read that it was a copy..

It looked genuine to me,..

Have a nice evening, Coert.

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:29 pm

Dear Coert, stop worrying :) ! Lemme explain it to you in a very simple way :D. I had something (an Adrian helmet) that was totally, utterly, completely worthless to me. I mean this literally. It spent years in my basement because I didn't like it, I didn't want it, and I didn't have the faintest memory where/how the fugg I obtained it. I just had it. Someway, somehow, it had simply finished up among my stuff. It had gravitated towards me.

And then, after I posted some pics here, several people actually liked it. They wanted it. They desired it. They even expressed the wish to buy it :o :D ! I had an acute flabbergasm (grin), because if somebody had come around, looked at it and said: "Can I have that?", I would have replied "Sure - it's yours" and simply given it away.

But then some idiot (you - wide grin!) desired it so much that he even wanted to give me a Pickelhaube in exchange. Now that's what I want! I only want Pickelhaubes! And so, Coert, we came to the perfect deal! You had received something that I did not want, and I received something that I wanted badly! It's for a damn good reason that I have repeatedly stated here, on Facebook and to you personally, that I think it's me who got the best end of the deal! I still think so!

I didn't need to examine the Haube, I didn't need to take everything off and scrutinize it. I wanted it anyway! If I had known that the Wappen was repro, I would have taken it. If I had discovered that the spike might also be repro, I would have taken it. I saw that the body of the helmet including the brass visor trim and the brass rear spine truly and verily was the real thing, because although I have been out of collecting far too long and have forgotten much, I'm still bloody well able to recognize a true period Pickelhaube when I have one in my own hands and tenderly fondle it like the boobs of a busty babe :D !

So stop worrying, Coert! Sure, I didn't notice that the Wappen was repro - that Wappen had me baffled anyway. Now I know, and now you know. And so bloody what? We swapped the helmets "as they were". You had told me up front that the Kokarden and the chinstrap were repro, and that the rear spine where it meets the spike base needs a spot of soldering. Those were the things you knew. Fair enough: you've been completely honest, you've not tried to cheat me, and I don't feel cheated. On the contrary: I will be happy to swap stuff or otherwise do business with you again!

So forget all that nonsense like feeling shitty 8-) ! We made an honest deal, of which I still think I got the best end! Simply go to bed, have a good night's sleep, dream peacefully of Pickelhaubes or for all I care Adrians, and stop worrying! For the time being I'll leave the repro plate on because it's looking bloody damn good, and sometime in future I'll undoubtdly find an affordable period Wappen to put in it's place. Really... that's all! Relax!

Take care!

Jaap.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:13 am

Here are, for purely educational purposes (grin), some pics of the very convincing replica Wappen. I think it's extremely well done, astonishingly detailed, bloody convincing, and in fact looking better than some originals I've seen :eek: :D ! Having encountered some really bad reproductions in the olden days, I am rather surprised at the quality of this particular fake.

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I think I'll leave the replica Wappen on, at least for the time being. The loops are rather close together: about 7 centimeters. The corresponding holes in the helmet are also fairly close together - I don't know if I can easily find an original Wappen that would match the holes, most pieces I encounter have the loops some 8 centimeters apart. But one never knows - life tends to present us with the occasional surprise, every now and then (grin)!

Those holes are of some interest all by themselves. Both seem to have been moved upwards a little, in some undoubtly ancient part of the helmet's history - it seems to have been done "officially". One of the (apparently ancient) brass grommets is still there, above the neatly plugged but during the years somewhat deteriorated former hole. The other grommet has disappeared, with the result that the plug in the old hole has come loose (worked its way outwards) and the whole thing looks rather messy.

I won't do too much to restore/improve the helmet. I'm not very good anymore with my hands and with tools, so I fear that any "improvement" I make wouldn't do much else than buggering the old lady up beyond any reasonable recognition. One has to know one's own limitations :P !

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And here, finally, is the old lady as she looks now. I didn't do anything else but apply some first quality shoe polish and buffing the result to a mild shine (that was a great improvement!), and use the old but still highly effective "tomato purée trick" to remove some dirt/discolouration (not patina!) from the front peak trim and the spike. I think I will now leave her like she is. She has found a good home where her ancient beauty is appreciated. My Queen of Prussia :D !

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Sandmann » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:14 pm

I'm sorry, but your plate is galvano copy
Leone, may I ask how do you recognize the Fake? Sorry for this question, it’s not because I don’t believe your state. But Ì’m also new in collecting Haubes and would like to learn how to identify Galvano-Copies.
Thank you very much :)
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by b.loree » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:30 pm

Look at the pictures of the reverse side....granular, it looks like sand paper. It should not be this way. An original would have the same crisp details on the back as on the front. An original would not be silver coloured on the reverse. The loops soldered on the reverse are the wrong shape and the wrong gauge of wire (too thin). The solder on the loops should have a grey patina to them due to 100 years of oxidization, these are silver coloured like the rest of the back side. This is not right.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:33 pm

We'll, that explains why it is so important to look carefully at the Wappen especially the reverse. I would suggest looking for an original M95 Wappen for it.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:33 pm

Exackerly! The back side is the give-away. As for the front: that side is still looking impressively good to me! Hat off to the faker :thumb up:
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:43 pm

Sandy, Brian, Tony and all others interested in this thread: eventually I'll find a decent original M1895 plate for this helmet. What I have to watch for though is that the loops will fit into the holes of the old lady (oh dear - maybe I should re-formulate that :D ). On the M1895 plates I see offered (yes, I'm looking around!) the distance between the loops is often mentioned as 8 or even 8.5 centimeters... if a distance is mentioned, which is not always the case.

In the meantime I'll leave the replica in place on the old lady, and only look at her front which is nigh perfect :D
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Sandmann » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:54 pm

Thank you for the good explanation. Thank you very much guys :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by b.loree » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:42 pm

Sandy, a picture is worth 1,000 words so here are some pics of original Prussian wappen which illustrate what I have been talking about. One of our prime directives here on the forum is to prevent our fellow collectors from being ripped off especially those who are new to the Haube World.
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Here we see 2 original M15 Prussian wappen...on the right note the crisp details on the feathers and lettering, this is similar quality to pre war brass M95 examples. On the left we have an example which shows a stamping from a worn out die. It lacks the detail of the other and the letters look "fuzzy". The colour of these two is also different and this is common among M15's, the one on the left is more of a feldgrau colour while the right...grey.

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The reverse side also shows the differences in detail. Note also the solder on the left is painted so we know....soldered then painted. On the right, 100 years of oxidization on the solder. Next a cupro aluminium and brass examples.

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On the left, the typical brass wappen and on the right an example of the cupro/aluminium plate which is almost a dark orange colour. I could be wrong on this description...it could also be that this wappen has just maintained it's exceptional gilt finish. :?

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The reverse showing crisp details and solder with 100 years of oxidization. Note how all of these original loops are totally different from the galvano copy on Jaap's wappen.

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Last, a galvano copy of an Anhalt M95 wappen. Look at all that copper! I got burned with this on German Ebay, I keep it as a reminder. :x

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Very similar to Jaap's.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Jaap Verduijn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:55 pm

Good stuff, Brian! Good information! :thumb up:
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Sandmann » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:16 pm

Thank you very much Brian, I safed this Thread in ibooks. Very informative and good examples for comparison.
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Lars13 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:28 pm

Brian,

Thank you for those comparison pics; very nice.

Do you know of any reference that indicates when the change from tombak to cupro-aluminium for the Wappen occurred? When I look at the oxidized parts of the bare metal (for example on the orb ) they look very similar on both Wappen, only the "gilt" wash looks different.

I would like to challenge the cupro-aluminium Wappen, with the following arguments:
  • - 1903 Bekleidungsordnung still specifies Tombak for the Wappen
    - Tombak was (is?) used a lot as imitation gold as it can look very similar to gold, so any of the gold-looking Wappen can be made of Tombak; the reddish Tombak only occurs at very high copper content
    - Kraus only mentions Tombak in relation to the Wappen, and nothing on cupro-aluminium Wappen in his book about German field-grey uniforms
    - The oxidized parts look very similar on both Wappen
Of course I don't mind being proved incorrect :oops: , but would appreciate more information.

Best regards,

Lars

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by Leone » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:43 am

oxidization on the solder is more easier to make than it seems.

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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by b.loree » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:32 pm

Yes Leone, I am aware of that method as well. However, there are also certain characteristics of "old original" soldering that can help a collector. Lars, I am very willing to be corrected on my cupro/aluminum description, I am no metallurgist. It could be tombac, I think the whole issue came out of Larcade's book. I will go back and check.
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Re: Please opinion on Prussian Infantry/Fusiliers Wappen

Post by aicusv » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:12 pm

This is some truly good information, thank you. The tale being told here gives clues to why I'm reluctant to purchase from eBay. It is some times just too hard to see details in a photo. Particularly with old eyes.
fezzes frigidus es

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