Okay, I admit Defeat

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SkipperJohn
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Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:45 am

I have a Prussian enlisted artillery helmet Model 1895 that has been in my collection for years and I have always had a question concerning the Kammer Mark:

Image

This helmet is clearly marked "AR31" which would indicate that it belonged to Fussartillerie Regt 31. Colonel J has a listed AR31 Kammer Mark here:

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/Kammer2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to all sources that I can find, including Cowan's & Trawnik's book and Tony's website, there were only 20 Fussartillerie Regiments in 1915. Since this helmet is a standard M1895 and would have been grey metal after 1915, I assume that it is no later than 1914 (it's not dated).

Who the heck is AR31?
Could this be marked to a battalion?
I admit defeat. I am hoping someone can give me an answer.

John :?
Last edited by SkipperJohn on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by aicusv » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:32 am

It would appear from the listings that AR31 was a field artillery unit that was changed to a Fuss. As there is no 31 listed in the field units. Also there are only 20 Fuss regiments, 1 through 18, plus 31 and 32. I'm sure that one of the members has a documented answer.
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Tony without Kaiser
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:09 pm

John, it's important to remember that there's really no difference between a Pickelhaube made in 1895 and a Pickelhhaube made in 1915 and probably well into 1916. When the A.K.O 21 September 1915 regarding the M15 regulations came out, all those millions of soldiers did not wake up the next morning within M15 helmets. It would have taken considerable time to tool up to start manufacturing those helmets. Plus then you've got to consider the Vereinfachte uniform problem where Pickelhauben with brass and Neusilber fittings were made right up until 1918. As for Fußartillery Btl. 31 it was a wartime raised battalion armed with 10cm Kanone M04 and 15cm s.F.H..
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:50 pm

Tony without Kaiser wrote:John, it's important to remember that there's really no difference between a Pickelhaube made in 1895 and a Pickelhhaube made in 1915 and probably well into 1916. When the A.K.O 21 September 1915 regarding the M15 regulations came out, all those millions of soldiers did not wake up the next morning within M15 helmets. It would have taken considerable time to tool up to start manufacturing those helmets. Plus then you've got to consider the Vereinfachte uniform problem where Pickelhauben with brass and Neusilber fittings were made right up until 1918. As for Fußartillery Btl. 31 it was a wartime raised battalion armed with 10cm Kanone M04 and 15cm s.F.H..
Thank you very much Tony. I could find nothing on AR31. Do you know what year it was formed and where it was located?
You mentioned Fussartillerie Battalion 31, so this helmet is marked to a battalion and not a regiment? I did find artillery battalion 31 in my resources, same unit?

John :)

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by ottodog8 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:12 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why couldn't it be the 1. Unter-Elassisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 31 stationed at Hagenau?
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by joerookery » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:03 pm

ottodog8 wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here, but why couldn't it be the 1. Unter-Elassisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 31 stationed at Hagenau?
It could. Many variations inFARunits for example
Image
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:33 pm

In researching this helmet I have to admit that I was playing the percentages. The helmet is 100% original including the chin strap. The fittings on the chin strap are the standard size and not the over thick type that would replace chin scales. Here is what my research has turned up:
1) The field artillery wore chin scales until 1915 even in the field.
2) The foot artillery switched to leather chin straps in the field in 1894.
3) The field artillery was marked FAR while the foot artillery was marked AF or AR.

Putting two and two together: leather chin strap (chin scales would probably not fit) and marked to an AR unit, I "assumed" that it belonged to a foot artillery unit and began researching AR31. There was an artillery battalion 31 in the foot artillery, but not a regiment. That is why I asked if this helmet could be marked to a battalion.

At first, when I bought this helmet, I thought it belonged to Field Artillery Regiment 31, but ruled that out for the above reasons.

To further add to the confusion, I have period photos that indicate that the field artillery did, in fact, wear a leather chin strap with the Dunkelblau uniform prior to 1910.

This fellow belongs to the 19th Field Artillery Regiment:

Image

This soldier is also in the field artillery:

Image

You can tell that both of the above soldiers are field artillery because the shoulder boards on their uniforms are dark. All of the foot artillery regiments had white shoulder boards. Both of the soldiers pictured above have leather chin straps on their helmets.

Now, thanks to Colonel J, I can see that the field artillery and the foot artillery could both use "AR" followed by a number in their Kammer mark.

I am led to believe that this helmet did belong to Field Artillery Regiment 31 as I first suspected.

Any input to assist in identification is sincerely appreciated.

What a wonderfully confusing hobby!!!!!!!

John :?
Last edited by SkipperJohn on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by kaiser » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:55 am

I also have a artillery helmet for pruisian that is marked AR31 the same as yours is
When i can will post a pic of mine to get that confusion out of your head :D

Jonas

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:19 am

kaiser wrote:I also have a artillery helmet for pruisian that is marked AR31 the same as yours is
When i can will post a pic of mine to get that confusion out of your head :D

Jonas
Jonas,
Does yours have a leather chin strap or chin scales?
John

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by kaiser » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:00 pm

I only collect fieldgrey examples
All of my helmets have the leather straps
I wil try for posting tomorow the pics of the helmet that i mention and maybe all my arty helmets in a grouping

Jonas

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:12 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:Thank you very much Tony. I could find nothing on AR31. Do you know what year it was formed and where it was located? You mentioned Fussartillerie Battalion 31, so this helmet is marked to a battalion and not a regiment? I did find artillery battalion 31 in my resources, same unit? John :)
Hi John,

My list is from Intelligence sources as of October 1918, so I do not know when it was formed. But Fuß A 31 was a battalion, not a Regiment. If that has anything to do with your helmet, I have no idea.
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by joerookery » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:06 am

OK boys and girls could someone send me a picture of this Mark and permission to put it on the list?
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by aicusv » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:17 pm

joerookery wrote:OK boys and girls could someone send me a picture of this Mark and permission to put it on the list?
There is an AR31 mark already shown on your list. Or am I missing something?
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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:01 pm

joerookery wrote:OK boys and girls could someone send me a picture of this Mark and permission to put it on the list?
Joe, I think that you already have a photo of this Kammer, but here are two more:

Image

Image

You may use either, or both. You always have permission.

John :)

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Re: Okay, I admit Defeat

Post by SkipperJohn » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:40 pm

This post has been updated using picorator.com.

John :D

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