What is this?

If it has a wool or hair "comb' on tnhe top, its a Raupenhelm

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Prussian Garde
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What is this?

Post by Prussian Garde » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:13 pm

Just saw this on ebay and I have no clue what it is, looks like one for civil use, like in the police force, what do you think?
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Re: What is this?

Post by Pontiac9999 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:59 pm

It's a Bavarian raupenhelm. Google it!

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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:10 pm

This is supposed to be a Model 1868 Bavarian Raupenhelm for officers.
I have been in this debate before and I am still undecided on these helmets.

Here is a Model 1845 for enlisted infantry:
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Here is a Model 1868 for enlisted infantry:
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Note how the rear neck guard and front visor are attached. They are folded under and made to look like the helmet is made from one piece.
Look at the photograph you posted and see how the rear neck guard is attached. It looks like it would be on a Pickelhaube. They are not near the same.

Here is the debate: some will say that this is a private purchase officer's Model 1868 Raupenhelm and that the rear visors were attached differently depending upon the manufacturer. Others will say that the Raupenhelm shown is actually a later model fireman's helmet that has been converted to a "fake" Raupenhelm.
I still don't know the truth. You need to carefully check the inside of the helmet and see how the Raupe is attached. Any extra holes or anything that doesn't line up is a bad sign. Also check the rear visor closely to see if brass trim has ever been attached, an indication of a fireman's helmet. Small holes at the very ends of the rear visor can show that pins/studs were once present and this is also a very bad sign.

I hope others chime in. I have wondered about this for years.

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by Prussian Garde » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:26 pm

They are definitely 2 separate pieces. The helmet looks like if a raupenhelm was made like an 1895 Pickelhaube.
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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:22 pm

I am from the opinion that this type of Officers Raupenhelm is ok, I am biased as I have one that I have no doubt in my mind is real, see pictures.

Also, on page 69 of the Best reference of Bavarian helmets, Die Helme der Koniglich Bayerischen Armee 1806-1918 by Walter Seibold and Gerd Schultz, there is a picture of this type. it is listed as a M1868 officer helmet. Clearly shows 3 piece design and you can see the red on inside of rear visor

IMO I think the one on Ebay is legit, just missing the silk liner, but as John clearly states and this is important, always look for the extra holes from previous attachments.

thanks

James

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Re: What is this?

Post by Prussian Garde » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:23 am

Ok, thank you
Weakness is not treachery, but it fulfils all its functions.

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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:48 pm

I found the advertisement on Ebay of the helmet originally posted in this thread and I have to admit that it looks really good. It would be very difficult to argue authenticity with this piece.

Here is another example that is different than any of those above:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Antique-B ... 1438.l2649

Note how the front and rear visor are attached under a leather bead unlike the one in the original post or the one in James' collection.

I wish that I still had the photos of the fake that I once purchased. It was made from one of these:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Imperi ... 1438.l2649

I bought it off of Ebay and didn't question any of the photos; it looked good. When it arrived I found that the Raupe was made of fake fur (nylon I believe) and that the cockade was actually plastic. The outline of the comb used on the fireman's helmet was still visible on the inside of the helmet (couldn't be seen in the ad photos because of the silk liner and it was covered on the outside by the Raupe). It was beautiful --- just not real. It also became the absolute worst nightmare that I have ever had trying to return something on Ebay. The owner guaranteed originality (which wasn't true) and I had to prove otherwise. The seller simply stated that he didn't know. To make a long story short, I was able to return it and I got my full purchase price. Since it came from Germany I was out around $100.00 for postage. A lesson well learned.

Again, now that I have seen photos of the inside and all angles of the helmet in question, I would say it does look original!

James --- I have got to buy that book!

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:17 pm

Pardon me --- I lied.
My wife read this post and asked if I was referring to the helmet I was so disappointed with about eleven years ago. I said it was, and she said it didn't come from Germany --- it came from England.

I suppose I should have known better to start with.

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:33 pm

John- hard book to find, I will keep my eye out for you.

James
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Re: What is this?

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:35 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:48 pm
James --- I have got to buy that book!
John
Yes you do. Absolutely brilliant and I would suggest not even looking at a Raupenhelm purchase without it.
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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:35 pm

J.LeBrasseur wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:33 pm
John- hard book to find, I will keep my eye out for you.

James
Hard to find puts it mildly --- try impossible.
I only have the two Raupenhelm's pictured above, if you don't include the 1809 Prussian Kurassier.
Do you think it would be a good idea to add a separate "Raupenhelm" section in this forum?

John :???:

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:51 pm

Hard to find puts it mildly --- try impossible.
I only have the two Raupenhelm's pictured above, if you don't include the 1809 Prussian Kurassier.
Do you think it would be a good idea to add a separate "Raupenhelm" section in this forum?

John :???:
[/quote]

Good Idea, Brian????
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Re: What is this?

Post by b.loree » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:00 pm

Why not? Give me a week until I get home and we will set it up.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:35 pm

b.loree wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Why not? Give me a week until I get home and we will set it up.
Great! I'm sure that will be helpful to anyone researching these.
I do not know how to transfer an entire thread, but here are two that you could transfer to kick it off:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11354
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11355

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:30 pm

b.loree wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Why not? Give me a week until I get home and we will set it up.
Hang on..........
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Re: What is this?

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:33 pm

Done. 8)
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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:06 pm

Outstanding! Thanks Tony.

John =D> =D> =D>

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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:37 pm

Did anybody on this forum get the piece that started this thread?
I saw that it closed today on Ebay.

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:16 pm

Maybe :-"
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Re: What is this?

Post by kaiser » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:34 pm

Nope not me #-o #-o

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:28 pm

Just arrived, nice piece.

James
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Re: What is this?

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:20 pm

J.LeBrasseur wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:28 pm
Just arrived, nice piece.

James
When will we get some photos?

John :)

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:41 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:20 pm
J.LeBrasseur wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:28 pm
Just arrived, nice piece.

James
When will we get some photos?

John :)
Will try tomorrow!

James
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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:29 pm

Want to show some better pictures and characteristics of an Officer Raupenhelme of this type.

Showing how the Raupe is attached to helmet on inside, as well as the rear attachment on the outside that uses a Uberzug type hook to attach under a small plate in back of helmet. Also a shot of the vents.

This one has leather sweatband, but is missing the silk liner, which I will look to replace when I find one.

thanks

James

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Re: What is this?

Post by USMC-EOD » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:31 pm

Good Lord, James.

You must have one off the more advanced collections on this site. Always enjoy seeing your posts. Good for learning.

Bryan.

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Re: What is this?

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:54 pm

USMC-EOD wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:31 pm
Good Lord, James.

You must have one off the more advanced collections on this site. Always enjoy seeing your posts. Good for learning.

Bryan.
Not sure about advanced, but I do have a good chunk of helmets, thanks for the comments.

James
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Re: What is this?

Post by Prussian Garde » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:23 am

Great to see that I was able to spot one for you. Hope you enjoy it!
Weakness is not treachery, but it fulfils all its functions.

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