Pickelhaube M15

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MP75
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Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:58 am

Hello,

I am new to this Forum.

My name is Marc, I live in Paris and like Pickelhauben very much.

At the moment, I am restoring a M15 Pickelhaube and attache the pics.

I am however wondering where it is from (what state) so that I can add a plate. There are no inscriptions inside. The distance between the front holes is 7cm (2.75 inch) which is too large for a prussian plate.

Does someone know?

Have a good day!

Marc

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:00 am

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640D786F-BF5B-4D16-B2B9-A40930C65227.jpeg

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:00 am

87FA6CFC-14D2-4E7E-AF82-2DF0F38ED01F.jpeg
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:01 am

2126BFB4-C070-438F-BCB8-EA7A10127D32.jpeg

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Amybellars
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Amybellars » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:39 am

Hi Marc

It should be a prussian.

Different manufacturers have slight differences so u need to try a few.

Regards
Amy Bellars

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:57 am

Hi Amy!

Thank you! I will try.

How can you tell it should be Prussian? (I like to learn😉)

Best regards,
Marc

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Lars13 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:11 am

Welcome to the forum Marc!

Can you post a picture of the inside of the rear visor? That's where regimental / army corps stamps are most often located. Or are there any stamps in other places on the helmet?

Without any stamps it is not possible to determine which plate should be on the helmet as all contingents used the same helmet type, however statistically Prussian is the most likely :D

Regards,

Lars

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Sandmann
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Sandmann » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:37 am

A nice project. Hope you‘ll find a stamp and a Wappen with the correct dimensions. Welcome to the Forum :)
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by USN » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:04 pm

Baden plates can often fit prussian helmets so it is possible its from baden

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:32 pm

Hi,
Thanks for your replies!
There are no stamps or markings inside, unfortunatly.
I will try different prussian and baden plates (as soon as I find one)

Best regards,
Marc

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:33 pm

93E51DB3-EA2F-43F0-8091-A478A2879CD2.jpeg
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b.loree
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by b.loree » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:12 pm

Personally, my vote goes for "Prussian Garde" wappen. If you look closely at the front of the helmet, (tape measure photo) you can see the shadow of the swept wing Model 1915 Garde wappen. Last, welcome to our forum Marc! :thumb up:
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Sandmann
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Sandmann » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:05 am

b.loree wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:12 pm
Personally, my vote goes for "Prussian Garde" wappen. If you look closely at the front of the helmet, (tape measure photo) you can see the shadow of the swept wing Model 1915 Garde wappen. Last, welcome to our forum Marc! :thumb up:
You have really good eyes, looks really like the shape of a prussian Guard :bravo:
Best wishes, Sandy

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Amybellars » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:29 pm

b.loree wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:12 pm
Personally, my vote goes for "Prussian Garde" wappen. If you look closely at the front of the helmet, (tape measure photo) you can see the shadow of the swept wing Model 1915 Garde wappen. Last, welcome to our forum Marc! :thumb up:
Brian it does have the garde Eagle ghost lines but 7-7.7cm is one of prussian heraldic or baden.

There are collectors who move the prongs of garde Eagle to for info infantry.

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Amybellars » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:31 pm

MP75 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:57 am
Hi Amy!

Thank you! I will try.

How can you tell it should be Prussian? (I like to learn😉)

Best regards,
Marc
Marc, I learn it as well lol

Usually roughly 7cm to 8cm difference between the holes tell the difference.

Prussian heraldic Eagle or baden are interchangeable but baden l ones are less commonly found

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by b.loree » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:27 pm

One can not strictly rely on measurements of the wappen holes. This ignores the size of the helmet..54...60cm and half sizes in between. I maintain faith in the wappen shadow which indicates what was truly on there. Smaller size helmets obviously, necessitated a smaller wappen of any type. A wappen from a size 58cm obviously would look silly on a 54 cm. Again on this helmet, look at the wappen shadow, it does not equate to the usual Prussian line infantry. Every M15 Prussian line wappen does not fit every Prussian M15 marked helmet...size does count :) ! Stick, one of these PLInf wappen on your helmet if you have one and you will see that it does not match up to the markings on the front of your helmet. Bottom line despite all of this discussion/energy....it is your hat, do what you want to complete it.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by b.loree » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:05 pm

One last comment before we beat this post to death.....these helmets were mass produced which means at the turn of the century, a semi standardization of production.... fittings should fit the size of the helmet shell. The spike top and M91 posts are common to all helmets BUT ALL other fittings.....spine, wappen and visor trim are subject to the size of the helmet shell. More specifically, the visor trim and rear spine have to be precise to match helmet size. You do have a bit more leeway with the wappen holes, wappen size and soldered loops, BUT even there, they have to look good at the end result of production. We have PROBE examples in many collections..... it has to meet AKO standards.....supposedly. However, there is wartime expediency.....??
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:57 am

Hello, thank you very much! I learned a lot! So I will try different Wappen to see.
Good Friday to you all.
Marc

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Lars13 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:11 pm

Hi Brian,

According to the 1903 Bekleidungsordnung (page 95) the Wappen for a certain branch only has one size, for all sizes of Pickelhaube with that Wappen the bottom of the Wappen should align with the top of the front visor, and the top of the Wappen will have a varying distance to the base of the spike dependent on the helmet size.

I will measure some Wappen in my collection to see if they follow the regulations.

Regards, Lars

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:09 pm

This would indeed be interesting!

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aicusv
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by aicusv » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:48 pm

I don't know what happened to my earlier post on this, but what I said was after 100 years the leather shrinkage can play with the fit of the Wappen. The hole spacing will change and a Wappen that was on a helmet that shrunk will measure different from one that wasn't.
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by Lars13 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:25 pm

I've only taken the helmets where I'm pretty convinced that the standard Prussian Wappen is original to the helmet. Measured with a tape along the Wappen from the cross on the head to the tail feathers, +/- 1 mm measuring inaccuracy :D :

Year - Maker - Size - Wappen - Height
1896 - Unknown - 56 - 11.0 cm
1906 - Unknown - 55 1/2 - 11.0 cm
1910 - Rudolf Wiemer, Mülheim-Ruhr - 55 - 10.8 cm
1910 - E. de la Croix Nachf. Berlin - Unknown - 10.8 cm
1916 - Wilhelm Becker & Co? - 55 - 10.8 cm
Loose Tombak Wappen - 10.8 cm
Loose iron Wappen - 10.7 cm

As all Wappen seem to be 10.9 mm +/- 1 mm in height, I conclude from this very limited data set that there is only one standard Prussian Wappen size.

If you have very large or small Prussian helmets please measure the Wappen height so we can (dis-)prove above conclusion.

Regards, Lars

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:57 am

Hi,

I also did some measuring.

The Prussian Officer (size 57 1/2) is 11cm.

I dont know the size of the M15, but it seems a bigger. Here I measured 11,6 cm
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BR
Marc

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:04 am

7E112E7C-CF75-42C7-A760-634BF721F9AC.jpeg
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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by aicusv » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:35 am

I thought we were talking about the measurement between mounting holes? I've found that the Prussian Wappen measures between 7 to 8cm from center of loop to center of loop.
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: Pickelhaube M15

Post by MP75 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:54 am

Hi,
Indeed, it started with the measurements between the mounting holes.
As a sideeffect, it seems that I could learn that some Prussian Wappen are taller than other Prussian Wappens.
BR
Marc

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