Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

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Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by Lost Skeleton » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:36 pm

What follows will be an attempt to shed additional light on the subject of Pickelhaube Helmbezüge by analyzing original field covers, noting their similarities and differences, and placing them in a chronological historical context. This is not intended to be, nor can it be, a definitive evaluation of the subject. However, it should provide a fundamental overview, which may prove of value to the collector and armchair historian alike.

This concept, in embryonic form, was introduced recently in a sister thread. However, the analysis was quickly mired in a priori assumptions and straw man arguments focused exclusively on parsing the AKO directive of 28 January 1897. I would like this second attempt to engender participation, but I don’t want to see it stymied by supposition and contentious egos (mine included).

My primary desire is for the discussion to be collaborative and constructive.

It is necessary to begin with a few words regarding the photography. The digital photographs provided herein were taken with an Olympus SP-350 utilizing the zoom, macro, and super macro lens settings. The camera’s white balance was calibrated to eliminate chroma bias. The field covers where photographed under blue tungsten photoflood bulbs against an opaque neutral background. Photoshop was employed to resize and crop the images, erase background shadows, and, when necessary, correct exposure and focus. However, no color correction was performed.

Even with this diligence, it will be apparent immediately how significantly the color will vary from picture to picture. Additionally, because the pages of this forum are white, a black background was selectively employed to provide a more accurate impression of the true color of the artifacts photographed. However, the type of monitor used for viewing (CRT, LCD), and the accuracy of its contrast and gamma settings will also artificially enhance or degrade color fidelity. Therefore, my written descriptions will provide the final word on color as I am assessing the artifacts “from life.”

SECTION I: ISSUED HELMBEZÜGE

Example one, a circa 1892 to 1913 Artillerie Helmbezug, has appeared on the forum previously:

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The helmet and field cover were issued to 2. Lothringisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 34 of the XVI.AK. The helmet had a long service life, beginning in 1896, and was reissued in 1910 to Kanonier Zimmermann II

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The cover, dated 1913, appears to have been contemporary surplus transferred to the XVI.AK from the VIII.AK (2. Rheinisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 23). There is no evidence to suggest that regimental numbers were ever sewn to the the cover.

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The Helmbezug cloth is a basket weave of neutral and bundled green and russet colored yarns. Though faded to a dirty tan, the original color was reed-green. The Helm cover is two-panel construction with a side seam joining the fore and aft panels. The spike opening is elasticized. The Kugel hood features an interior leather lining and is attached to the Helm cover with variegated non-elastic cloth twill. The attachment hooks (three in the fore and two aft) are brass. Because the helmet’s rear spine is not ventilated, there is no corresponding vent hole in the cover.

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Example two, a circa 1897 to 1914 Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Friedrich der Niederlande (2. Westfälisches) Nr. 15 Helmbezug, has also been presented to the forum before:

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Like its predecessor, the cloth is a faded basket weave of neutral and bundled green and russet colored yarns. The spike hood features a leather lining and the hooks are brass. A hand stitched opening is present for the Hinterschiene Schiebeklappe. In material and construction, it is identical to the artillery Helmbezug. The Arabic numerals are red felt and machine sewn to the cover utilizing a zigzag stitch.


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Example three, a circa 1897-1914 Füsilier-Regiment General-Feldmarschall Prinz Albrecht von Preußen (Hannoversches) Nr. 73, is identical in construction and material as the FAR 34 and IR 15 covers. The Arabic numerals match those of the IR 15 cover, as does the stitching. It is the least faded of the three and provides the best impression of reed-green (particularly the interior).

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Example four, a 1915 dated Triersches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 44 Helmbezug illustrates the initial wartime changes in material and construction. Spruce-green felt Arabic numerals, sewn to the helmet with a simplified running stitch, have replaced the prewar, highly visible red, the Helmbezug cloth is an even-weave of medium brown yarn, the attachment hooks are cast metal painted black, and the Kugel hood lining is now cloth.

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The circa 1892 - 1914 variegated cloth twill, which joins the Kugel hood to the field cover has been retained:

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Example five, a 1915 dated two-piece cover, typifies the pattern developed for the M15 Pickelhaube with detachable spike. The cover is an even-weave of medium brown yarn, the attachment hooks are unpainted steel, the opening for the ventilation hub is reinforced and elastic, and quarter-circle openings backed in leather allow the chinstrap to be worn outside the cover. The Helm cover is constructed of four panels (comparable to early baseball caps)

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A ghost Arabic numeral “3” is also visible. Possible explanations are:
1. The number is a faded ink/dye stencil.
2. The number is a shadow created by a non-colorfast cloth number having once been sewn to the cover.
3. The number was stamped on the cover to assist a textile worker in accurately positioning a cloth number for machine sewing.

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SECTON II: PRIVATE PURCHASE HELMBEZÜGE

Example one is a circa 1892 to 1918 private purchase cover with a taller spike hood proportionate to the officer Pickelhaube. Replacing the brass visor hooks are protective reinforced cloth pockets. The sole marking found on the cover is “D.R.P.” for Deutsches Reich Patent. The cloth is an even-weave of light gray and twisted light gray/pale olive yarn. The Helm cover is two-panel construction.

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Example two is a circa 1897 to 1918 Reserve-Infanterie cover representing either Prussian Infanterie-Regiment Graf Tauentzein von Wittenberg (3. Brandenburgisches) Nr. 20 or Bavarian 20. Infanterie-Regiment Prinz Franz. With the exception of machine sewn (running stitch) forest-green Arabic numberals and Latin “R”, the cover is identical to private purchase example one, albeit faded.

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Example three is an unissued circa 1915 to 1918 private purchase cover that provides the perfect counterpoint to issued example number five above. The spike hood and cover are separable and reinforced quarter-circle openings are present for the chinscales/chinstrap to be worn outside the cover. The helmet cover is ink stamped “D.R.P.,” and the spike hood “D.R.G.M.” (Deutsches Reich Gebrauch Muster). Of all the covers discussed, this is first Helmbezug in which additional elastic is used. The sides of the cover, between the fore and aft visor pockets, feature an internal elastic cord for a more custom fit.

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Example four is subject to the reader’s interpretation. Suffice it to say, it is correctly made, but how does it compare to the examples above?

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To summarize, the preceding overview was intended as a quick reference to the characteristics one would expect to see in original Helmbezüge. What I have not been able to address are stenciled numbers and characters, alternative yarns and weaves, and Tschako, Tschapka, Metallhelme, and Stahlhelm Überzüge. Please feel free to contribute to this database.

Chas.
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Post by PICKELMAX » Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:18 pm

Very nice work, thanks!

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Post by Adler » Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:43 am

Very interesting and informative! Those pictures are just amazing and show the smallest detail! Well done!

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Thank's for the article and work

Post by zipperheads9 » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:13 am

very informative article . Nice work and Thank's
Mark

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Post by spikeymikey » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:40 pm

What a feast! Thank's Chas - this thread should be a sticky.

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Post by RoyA » Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:47 pm

Well done Chas!
A superb exposé!
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Post by reservist1 » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:54 pm

To add to the great information Chas has provided on helmet covers, the following Jaeger covers may also be of interest.

The first example is an M15 style cover that is constructed in the same manner as officer covers

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except that is has reenforced slits that permit the chinstrap or chinscales to be worn outside the cover.

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The cover has elastic sections on each side and pockets with cardboard stiffeners that slip over the front & rear visors to provide a neater fit to the cover. The cover is also marked D.R.P. as typically seen on officer covers.
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The cover also has a reenforced slit on the top front to accomodate the wire portion of the field badge.
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The interesting question about this cover is; is it really a cover for an officer shako? While it is logical that officer shakos would have been manufactured in the M15 pattern with detachable chinscales mounted on M91 side lugs, to date none have been noted and the major reference texts do not mention this style construction for shakos. Therefore, the cover may be a private purchase item that was available for other ranks shakos. Given these questions, the cover has been displayed on a private purchase, orther ranks shako from Jaeger Bn. 7.

Saxon Jaeger Bns. 12 & 13 and Rifle Regiment 108 wore shakos of a pattern unique to Saxony. Additionally, the shako covers were uniuque and there were two different covers.
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The first cover illustrated is black oilcloth and covered only the shako body. The oilcloth covers are quite fragile and few have survived.

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The oilcloth cover was intended to be kept on the shako at all times. However, from the number of period photographs showing Saxon jaegers in the field with no cover on their shakos, this guideline was apparently often ignored.

The cover is retained by braided wool loops that button underneath the side lugs. This photo also shows the special small size kokarde used on Saxon shakos.

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The holes for the side ventilators were reenforced with a sewn on ring of oilcloth. The two small holes are for the thong that secures the bush to the side of the shako.
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This view illustrates the inside of the oilcloth cover. The cover was produced by the same manufacturer that made the shako.

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Saxon shakos also had a cloth camouflage cover.

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Hooks were not used to keep the cover in place. A small strap went underneath the side lug and the busch was tied to the outside of the shako.
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The following illustrates the reenforcement for the side vent. The angled slit below is where the retaining thong for the bush passes through the cover.

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A pocket at the front of the cover slips over the visor to cover the complete exterior of the shako.

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Finally, the unit mark on the inside of the cover. To the best of my knowledge this shako and the two covers have been together since they were first issued.

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Reservist1
Last edited by reservist1 on Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by spikeymikey » Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:11 am

Just keeps getting better, thank's guy's..........


:study:

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Post by b.loree » Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:53 am

Excellent !! I have learned so much! Thanks to all contributors. Brian
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:05 pm

reservist1 wrote:To add to the great information Chas has provided on helmet covers, the following Jaeger covers may also be of interest.
Congratulations on the understatement of the year, and its only April. Thank you for posting these Sachsen Tschako photos R1. I feel light headed. :sign11:
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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:58 pm

Here is a Kürassier officer’s Feldgrau Überzug, no manufacturer's or size markings of any kind.

A blurb from my Überzug web page: Although all arms of the cavalry were outfitted with cloth Überzug in 1892, Regimental numbers were not carried. The cavalry first carried the Regimental numbers on 15 August 1914 when all arms were ordered to carry the Regimental number in green on the front of the Überzug. Like the Garde Infantry, Garde cavalry formations never carried a Regimental number on the Überzug. Only blank Überzug were worn by Garde cavalry from 1892 to 1916.

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An an Ulanen issued Feldgrau Überzug marked to UR3.

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Post by b.loree » Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:31 pm

Congrats T on your latest purchase...very nice!! Chas et al...you realize, that you have just pushed up the price of uberzugs by 50%???? One last thing, on this forum there are pics of my Feld Arty Regt 61 officer cover. No one as yet has been able to explain the unique features of this piece. Brian
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Post by Lost Skeleton » Sun May 03, 2009 10:51 am

Forum member, DASH, (Dan) has volunteered pictures of this extremely interesting Tschakobezug.
DASH wrote:I only own 3 Überzugen, and have chosen the Tschako cover to show first. The other two are rather plain officer (I think) types. One has the lips/tabs that slip under the visors, with elastic on the side. the spike cover attaches with 4 straps. The only marking is a small black "VORN" stamped on the front tab. The other one is very similar, but does not have the fold under lips, only elastic completely around the edge. It is marked WILLY BURMEISTER, HAMBURG 36, with a smaller 3rd line which is unreadable, and size 57 faintly hand written in white chalk.

The material on all 3 seems to be of a heavy cotton (denim like) in field grey/green, and do not show the coarser, different colored threads seen on some of the covers posted. As I currently do not have a WW1 Tschako, the Überzug is on a 1950's era police Tschako.
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DASH wrote:The only marking is a Fr. N., Fr. H., Fr. N. II, or Fr H. II stamp just under the slit for the field badge. It most likely is Fr. N.. The II might be just a smudge from the edge of the stamp.
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In addition to the integrated Feldzeichen cover, the ventilation slits are a feature we haven't encountered heretofore.

Thank you for the contribution, Dan. :thumbright:

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun May 03, 2009 11:28 am

as requested some shots of a Shako cover I have.

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lost skeleton's guide to thepickelhaube helmbezug

Post by DASH » Mon May 04, 2009 8:41 pm

Chas - Thank you for posting the pictures of my Tschakobezug for me.

As I am far from knowledgeable on pickelhaubes, I learn from others who are and share their expertise on the forum, but, it is also nice to be able to contribute once and a while.

Dan

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue May 05, 2009 9:52 am

Dan, that pattern of cover with the enclosed Feldzeichen appears in 1930s to 1960s catalogues that supplied Polizei clothing and equipment, and also in many period photos of Polizei, including the Third Reich.
Kaiser: 09 July 1997 - 12 October 2010.
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Lost Skeleton's Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by DASH » Tue May 05, 2009 12:43 pm

Tony - Thanks for the information, it is a perfect example of learning from the expertise of others.

Although purchased separately, displaying it on the 1950's police tschako turns out to be not bad at all!

Dan

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Tue May 05, 2009 4:01 pm

Keep in mind Dan, that it is not a dud; far from it. I have seen these Polizei covers sell for over $400 USD as 1950s Polizei covers. They are not common.
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Lost Skeleton's Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by DASH » Tue May 05, 2009 4:35 pm

Tony - please don't misunderstand me, but I picked up just about all of my collection many years ago (when people were glad if you took the stuff off their hands). There was very little documentation to be had at the time.

Now that I am retired and have pulled the stuff out of storage, and have access to an unbelieveable amount of information, I have time to sort things out and correctly identify them. As the saying goes, "they are what they are", and I am glad to have each and every piece (and now know what it is).

Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge, and for the tip on the value of the cover - I had no idea.

Dan

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EM Tshako uberzug

Post by stephane_avesnes » Sun May 17, 2009 3:03 pm

hope these pics can help, I found them interesting to post here since most of the tshako covers seen in collections (they are scarce) are officers or war time. I saw another very nice example of a pre-war cover at the 2009 SOS but I could not afford it, and I know here near Lille (France) a 1916 prussian tshako with war time cover. I forgot to say that the cover was not found originaly with the tschako, obviously it is too big for it, however ... amasingly, both are marked after tel bat 3 !
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Post by joerookery » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:37 am

Just received this one. I had always thought that the patches were done in coordination with the color change of numbers. This later model disproves that thought. The helmet is not original to the cover.
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Post by joerookery » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:11 am

There is an extremely interesting discussion of the zigzag stitch and buttonholes in another forum. Apparently French collectors have some significant insights into the stitching!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ ... p?t=445144
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Some differences

Post by Cousette » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:20 pm

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On this photo points zigzag have an abnormal shape because the sewing machine is disordered. And the difference of size of thread and texture of thread prevent the stitches from being correctly made.

I realized the experiment with a modern machine.

the result :

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I dont know if it will be the same with on John Kayser sewing machine.

This machine were very rare is the early 20th.

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The construction of the first German Zickzacknähmaschine in 1882 by John Kayser (English and American had already finalized him) before). The machine to sew was too much detailed and too fragile. Zickzacknähmaschine was only lled after 1930 ".

Now if we compare in the first hand the 83 and 69 Ir and in the secand hand the 15 and 73 IR :

The first of the observations is the regularity of stitches.

They seem that there are ancient two models (I say ancient and not of from the period) by intellectual caution, a production for the cinema lposterior than the 1930s, or one works of collector being always possible)

Link: http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/ ... 558-45.htm

Page 4 to see the photo of Anzac. were you can see à 69 IR.

If we compare ancient both models, with 73 IR and 15 Ir, we notice that on these last ones are very regular.

While on the ancient models stitches are less regular, they close in the most concave parts, because needlewomen has to make turnpieces of tissues to follow the outlines of figures.

This, lets think that 15 and 73 were sewn by a digital machine.

Another argument to authentify the 73 IR et 15 IR is than to make a copy of tissues is impossible.

I called up this day A weaver specialized in the linen, he answered me only it not he put any concern. As are his work is completely manual, it will be only expensively (50 $ for a square meter).

But compare to the price of the copy (650 euros) it will be done.

Another argument is the number of these cover helmets (some people speak about hundred, the traders sold them 150 euro and could settle them in 100 euro, what nobody would make with items so rare) and make that their partisans possess some.

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Post by joerookery » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:26 pm

FYI the original thread–or precursor to this one.

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewt ... er&start=0
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Post by joerookery » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:19 pm

There is a very long discussion in France about this–at least two French forums have covered opinions on this. There is no general agreement. There are some examples of a zigzag shown in these forums and then there is talk about a “discovered cache of covers” in France 20 years ago apparently having the numbers 15, 73, and 51. Those ones from the “Discovered cache” are most heavily questioned. I have gotten a reasonable rundown from some French collectors but apparently this is a touchy subject for some of the people who have these covers, and there is no agreement between the collectors about which stitch or stitches are acceptable. Even if there is no agreement it has been extremely interesting and even now one of the covers is being dissected to see if more can be determined–this seems to have been going on around us.
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Post by Gustaf » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:21 am

Hey Joe,
The study of stitching is an interesting topic, I know that there are some of the people who reproduce items for the reenactors, who take pride in using the original period sewing machines to do their work (making their workmanship more difficult to distinguish form original in the future)
I can not find any relation between the 15, 51 and 73 regiments, they are not even in the same Corps, why would there be a “discovered cache of covers” from such diverse Regements? I could see it if they were from the same BA.
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Post by ir 76 de Hambourg » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:23 pm

Hello

These 3 regiments are not coming from the same BA:
IR15 = BA VII
IR51 = BA VI
FR73 = BA X

In France we are looking for the origine of these pickelhaube bezüg...

Amicalement
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Post by Gustaf » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:05 pm

I have a question, is it thought that the questionable numbers are applied to original Überzeuge, or are they thought to be reproduction too, I ask this because the two questionable examples seem to have similar material, and they are quite different from all the othere materials found on known originals?
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Post by joerookery » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:11 am

A French member of our forum forwarded this explanation–seems pretty clear.

Some points:

1. Sensitivity: this topic is very sensitive because most of the collectors have been buying Uberzug for lot of money (between 600 - 900 euros currently). So nobody is interested in discussing this topic especially if it is said that "there are fakes!". Then, collectors are not happy with this topic and are reacting quite fiercely against any debate.

2. Suspicions:

21. A big lot of prussian infantry Uberzug was allegedly discovered some years ago in Lorraine (Metz and its surroundings). It was said they were found in a old German barracks, behind a wall, ....you can imagine the legends around this discovery, explaining how genuine they were, except that it was a Bavarian barracks! Anyway. Most of them were sold with a red "73".

22. Numerous red numbers (in wool), made today, are currently for sale (Ebay, shows, etc....) and are very easy to find.

3. The debates:

The are 2 debates: one debate based on rivalry between two forums/people and one debate based on the items themselves.

4. Conclusions:

The zigzag sewing is under suspicion. It is said that red pieces sewed with a too perfect zigzag sewing was impossible before 1914.
Regarding the lot coming from Lorraine, it is said that Uberzug without any numbers were "improved" and sold to gain the max of money.

Once again, counter-attacks from collectors, trying to prove that their (very expensive) pieces are genuine continue in order to discredit the person who spoke first about this "zigzag" story.

So you see, we are at two levels:
-debate on the pieces and the red numbers, which is a very technical level
- difficulty between collectors/owners to discuss openly about theirs items, which is more of a sensation.


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My interest is a technical nature–look at the 83 example above. That is not a zigzag however, it is not a straight hand stitch. It appears to be from a machine–maybe I’m wrong–I am not sure really sure what it is. Is this a reproduction? I don’t think so but I’m open to different points of view. I have seen examples of zigzag stitches that look pretty convincing as well as others that look more modern. And then there is this 83! Beats me but I think it is an interesting discussion.
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SOME INFO

Post by stephane_avesnes » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:34 am

Hi Joe
just to clarify the situation :
1° - In the 80s, some guys found in the Dieuze barracks items dating from the 1st WW, including some very strange covers, marked after the 3rd chevau leger (Bavaria), I have one of these, they look so ugly that I did not dare to upload the pics on my website .... But they are most probably original, I bought or traded mine from Eric Siegel, a famous and serious French collector, for a very cheap price at that time. i'll try to take pics and post them here when I have time.

2° - Still in the 80s or beginning of the 90s, another grouping appeared, brand new, very nice and classic covers with red numbers (15, 51, 55 and 73), they sold for cheap (around 30 USD) at that time and many collectors bought some, including (according to La Mitraille) the regreated Jean Louis Larcade whose reputation has not to be recalled. from times to times one of these covers appears on the market. I bought mine (number 15) some years ago on ebay for the modest amount of 100 euros.... The source of these covers is not yet determined and some collectors, in favour of their authenticity, are trying to find the link to this source, probably in eastern France, Alsace or Lorraine. One or two contributors on the French forum (and on wehrmacht awards) are saying that some dealer is trying to promote their authenticity in order to push the price up. However all indicate that the initial stock pile was sold out many years ago and no dealer has currently any of these available, at least to my knowledge. Most of the analysis leads to the conclusion that they are original but mint, some interrogations are put on the numbers since it's possible to sew numbers on original covers. However 20 years ago, there was no interest for covers in France and no additionnal value for a numbered cover compared to a "naked" cover. The one in favour of a fake story or half fake (cover original with added numbers) mentioned that he was planning a C14 datation, so far no scientific info has been given on this topic and there's a sort of consensus on the french forum to come back to a scientific approach based on certainty and not on supposition, therefore a trend for considering them as originals.

hope this helps !

cheers
steve
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Last edited by stephane_avesnes on Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Gustaf » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:16 pm

Hey Steve,
The comment that they sold cheap $45-$50US is a bit missleading, at that time $50 was a very large sum for a bit of cloth, M1915 Pickelhauben were trading for not much more than that.
We do know that zigzag machines did exsist, and it is reasonalbe to believe that there were sewing machine opperators who could adjust them correctly, and it would be reasonable that a lot that were found together would be sewn by the same opperator, but I have a problem with the numbers of the regiments, and to know that 55 was included in the lot is even more interesting, it would seem that 1s and 5s were what the person sewing the covers liked.
On a side note, the French haversacks that Laurent found a few years ago, were so mint that they were thought to be reproduction by some, so it is pretty clear that the condition can not be a condemning factor.
Looking at Joe's 83 Überzug, it does look to be sewn with a zigzag machine that is out of adjustment, but if so, there is a very big difference in the angle and width of the zigzags. There has to be information on the machines that were available at the time, and what dimentions their stitches would be, as I suspect that they were not adjustable in width and number of stitches per inch/cm. Off hand, I would think a chain stich would be the most common used.
Best
Gus
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Post by stephane_avesnes » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:06 pm

Hi Gus,
concerning the price of spiked helmets, let's say that at the end of the 70s a pattern 1915 would have sold for 75-90 USD, during the 80s prices rose and at the end of the 80s, prices were around 150-200 USD. For instance, I bought a very nice complete and well marked Prussian 1895 pattern in 1989 for more than 300 USD, a huge amount of money, from a dealer, a bit expensive compared to the average price on the current market,
so saying that sold for 45 USD in the early 90s (or end of 80s) was cheap is not misleading, but that's a French point of view, since prices were much lower in the US, explaining the "rush to west" during the 1990s and later. I noticed myself in the period 2000-2006 a huge difference between US/Europe on ebay, and at the 2009 SOS, I could buy a lot of good stuff 30-40-50 % cheaper than here, :D .... I hope to come next year for SoS 2011 :)
concerning numbers, 1 and 5 yes, but also 3 and 7,
hope this helps
Steve

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Post by JR92 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:36 pm

Hello,

On this fascinating post, opinions are divergeants.
But now, it seems the doubt is only on figures

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and 55 IR

Post by Cousette » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:51 pm

Gustaf wrote:Hey Joe,
The study of stitching is an interesting topic, I know that there are some of the people who reproduce items for the reenactors, who take pride in using the original period sewing machines to do their work (making their workmanship more difficult to distinguish form original in the future)
I can not find any relation between the 15, 51 and 73 regiments, they are not even in the same Corps, why would there be a “discovered cache of covers” from such diverse Regements? I could see it if they were from the same BA.
Best
Gus
in the cave cover were 55 to.

15 51 55 73, The numbers work by permutations, and the techniques of manufacturings are really identical in all respects...And it is really suspect

for the datation we will use Cs137, who can to have the answer : before or after 1945. It's cheap and good for all the militaria for the périod.

Actually the zigzag loby say, Only sewing zigzag are statutory for the red figures...

the other sewing are not the rule.

The world's gone crazy

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Post by reservist1 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:03 pm

The study of stitching is an interesting topic
For what it is worth, here are some close ups of the numerals on an OJR 91 cover that are sewn with a zig zag stitch. The cover is also unit marked on the inside back.

Image

Image

Image

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Post by monfort » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:07 pm

Hi,

First, I don't collect German covers, but such a topic on the French Forum HM with more than 5.000 visits is really incredible and like others I look at it.

As I wrote in HistoiréMilitaria1418, the situation is going more and more confused and confusing.

As far we quickly reached a consensus on the covers themselves, as far as we put out all stories about the "famous" discoverd stockpiles, the debate is mainly concentrated on the type of red numbers' Zigzag stitching, roughly:

- either very accuretly made
- or irregular and hand-made finished.

This is the techncical core of the discussion.

At this time, there are two opposite groups, firmely defending theirs positions. One is mainly manned by owners and sellers.

If some member of Pickelhaubes.com would intervene and come with historical proves it will be better than just comparing covers stored in private collections as we are doing now ("mine is genuine!", "no, yours is a fake!").

For this reason, several readers are saying that the discussion is going boring.

And for young collectors of German covers, it is really difficult to understand what is true or not. I think, they will just give up this specific collection (too expensive, too uncertain), if there are no more guidelines than just "mine is genuine".

As IR76 mentioned, some fear is spreading because of the uncertainity (and probably difficulty to authentify the items definitely).

The feeling is there is something wrong: but what exactly? It is word against word. And it is probably old stories and old affairs coming from the past to the light: it is extremely difficult to separate what is personal affairs and what is really linked to the covers themselves.

It was just my opinion. I am unable to say what is true or not. It doesn't help too much, isn't it ?

I hope I was the more neutral I want to be.

Best regards,
Best regards

Eric

__________

Collecting and looking for 1857, 1860 and 1867 pickelhaubes

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Post by Gustaf » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:30 pm

reservist1 wrote:
The study of stitching is an interesting topic
For what it is worth, here are some close ups of the numerals on an OJR 91 cover that are sewn with a zig zag stitch. The cover is also unit marked on the inside back.


Reservist1
This gets more interesting as more examples come to light, Your 91 cover has the same type of fabric as the two other examples at the beginning of this thread, it also has the same zigzag stitching, this one looks to be old, and is not in the list of numbers found in the “discovered cache of covers" does this indicat that the others could be original? Even though we are not getting any solid answers to the question, I think this is something that will eventually be solved, as more information is accumulated.
Best
Gus
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Post by reservist1 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:59 pm

One of the central issues in this debate seems to be the question, was machine zig zag stitching used in Germany in the pre 1918 time period?

While not directly related to the attachment of numerals to covers, an interlocking dual zig zag stitch was used in the construction of officer style helmet covers. Specifically the seam for the front and rear visor pockets. Again for what it is worth, here are photos of the described stitching on an infantry officer and artillery officer cover. The same style stitching can be seen on page 1 of this thread, specifically the 92nd officer cover, the private purchase jaeger cover and the Cuirassier officer cover.

Image

Image

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Last edited by reservist1 on Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:28 pm

reservist1 wrote:One of the central issues in this debate seems to be the question, was machine zig zag stitching used in Germany in the pre 1918 time period? While not directly related to the attachment of numerals to covers, an interlocking dual chain stitch was used in the construction of officer style helmet covers.
Exactly. See how close and tight the zig-zag is on these officer Überzug? Compare to the very large wide zig-zag on the questionable Überzug . I just visited a friend of mine with an amazing collection of Überzug, and most are hand sewn or vertical machine sewn, but a few have zig-zag and those are very close and tight like the stitch pattern you show on these officer Überzug.
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Post by Lost Skeleton » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:33 pm

All I can add to the discussion is the following: My FR 73 Helmbezug was purchased from AGM, where I know Jeff would have subjected both the cloth and stitching to black light examination. This procedure, intended to reveal synthetic fibers, is far from an exact science as false positives have been known to occur (particularly if period cloth has been washed in laundry detergent containing phosphate). Though I can't, for the moment, recall the provenance of my IR 15 Helmbezug, I believe it was also purchased from AGM.

I can assure the reader that the material and construction of the FR 73 and IR 15 covers are identical in every respect to the 2. Rheinisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 23 specimen discussed and illustrated on page one of this topic (a Helmbezug mated to its matching Kugelhelm). Though the regimental numbers may be a bone of contention, the covers themselves are above suspicion.

With respect to felt numerals and zigzag stitching, my examples are consistent with R1's OIR 91 example and those pictured in the Jürgen Kraus reference, Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg. It is important to acknowledge that the FR 73, IR 15, FAR 23, and OIR 91 covers represent pre-war configuration, per directive, and it is not unreasonable to expect a greater degree of precision and quality in their construction.

What does this prove? Absolutely nothing. I wasn't around when these covers were manufactured. Who, questioning them today, was? Nothing R1, Tony, I, or anyone else can write on this subject will convince the avowed skeptic.

A final word on stitching. Long before powered flight, hot air and, later, gas balloons elevated man from his terrestrial bonds. What held those silk envelopes together and minimized the escape of hydrogen gas? Sewn seams. How rudimentary could sewing machines have been when the tolerances required for balloon fabrication were so critical and demanding? Likewise, examine the stitching on any Waffenrock or M1910 Bluse (particularly the reverse side of the collar) and then tell me the technology was lacking to sew felt cloth using a zigzag stitch.

Again, I'm not concerned whether anyone can (or should) be convinced these covers are genuine. What bothers me is the wholly speculative, dismissive attitude refuting the enterprise, ingenuity, and invention of our industrialized antecedents. As for a "Digital" sewing machine being prerequisite for producing a uniform zigzag stitch…

Now, that's what I call hard to believe.
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My poor pont of view

Post by Cousette » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:46 am

The sewing, the thread, the technique it is my speciality.
To redo as before is my knowledge.

You want of sheets grunschilf, identical, made with the techniques of the XIX century, not reacting to the U.V.
I can sell to you.
You want one covers helmet as 73 Ir, no concerns it sets two hours.

It is necessary to be realistic, the price of these cover helmets in shops in France: 750 $, allows to realize copies absolutely completed for 180 $.

And that in I say perfect, it makes say that 100 % of people are going to say to you that they are authentic.

I have one of these cover helmets in hands, it is certain that if there were no figures sewn zigzag and some modern glue behind figures, I would have well said with a reserve for materials.

It is only the feeling, but when we have of fabrics ancient in the hand all day long, we manage to make make the difference.

For me figures are tins

Cover them helmets are doubtful, it is for it that I want to make a research for Cs137 to see if one of the constituting is modern.

In France some shout that Cs137, does not work, but I reassure you it is the champion of the bad faith. And he it in some to sell.

If really these persons had of real certainty, he should say, the result is beforehand known: before 1945.

He would not say the science is a trickery.

He not it in that one drunkards to say that breath test does not work. The one who drank nothing is the first one to want to blow.

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Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:53 am

Cousette,
vous employez un programme de traduction oui? Écrivez ainsi les phrases très courtes et tres simples. Les longues phrases compliquées ne traduisent pas. Cordialement, Tony
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Post by Gustaf » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:25 am

Lost Skeleton wrote:
Again, I'm not concerned whether anyone can (or should) be convinced these covers are genuine. What bothers me is the wholly speculative, dismissive attitude refuting the enterprise, ingenuity, and invention of our industrialized antecedents. As for a "Digital" sewing machine being prerequisite for producing a uniform zigzag stitch…

Now, that's what I call hard to believe.
This is a very valid comment, remember, it was technology of the 1940s and 1950s that took us to the moon and back.

I do believe that any discussion is good, even if we do not all agree when the discussion is over, as it gets us to look closer at the items we handle.

Anything can be reproduced, and the more we understand, the better prepared we are to see the bad ones that we will run into.

Best wishes
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Post by JR92 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:36 am

Hello,

Joe, about your question :

"The example below has hooks to attach the maneuver band to the helmet cover. I have no idea what it connected to."
Image

they were connected like this, here on an Ueberzug from 1912, on these sewn "little reins"


Image
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Re: My poor pont of view

Post by Lost Skeleton » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:19 pm

Cousette wrote:He would not say the science is a trickery.

He not it in that one drunkards to say that breath test does not work. The one who drank nothing is the first one to want to blow.
Good Heavens!

For you non-physicists out there, the radioactive isotopes Caesium-137 and Caesium-134 were initially released into the environment via nuclear weapons testing. The former has a half-life of 30.07 years. If I follow Cousette, anything made prior to 1945 should be Cs-137 free. I beg your pardon? Anything exposed to Cs-137 would be irradiated by the isotope regardless of when it was made or when it was exposed (don't forget Chernobyl).

For example, irradiate a rock with Cs-137 (simple enough to do). How old is a rock? It certainly precedes the A-bomb to the tune of 4.54 billion years.

The environment is in crisis, the global economy in collapse, and, for some, this nonsense takes priority. Clearly, the thing to do is consult Octopus Oracle Paul.

After all, he's batting 1000.

Pax vobiscum.

Oh, and thanks for turning a well-intentioned web reference into a referendum on collector paranoia.
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speculations

Post by stephane_avesnes » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:34 pm

Mister Cousette exposed the same theory as Mister Boyer (same personne ? ) did on the French forum (HM) and all these points were refuted by "scientific" based observations by the most prominent members, those who really collect for many years and owe quite a number of samples.
In previous posts, we've had this member explaining that no camouflaged helmet was original, that the Guard stahlhelms (with this white/black shield) were all fakes, that white leather stahlhelm liners were all made in csech republic and so on, ....
It took 20 pages on the field covers for spiked helmet post to finally state that these 15, 51, 55 and 73 JR field covers were most probably original including the red numbers.
I then personnaly suspect some personal conflict behind this obstination, or a conflict with the forum as a whole, based maybe on the fact that "Cousette" was kicked out of the forum some weeks ago. I have to say that I'm not a moderator on this forum, I just visit from times to times and was not at all involved in the dispute that lead Cousette to be banned (before reappearing under another pseudo ?).
I warn my American fellow collectors and friends, I had the pleasure to meet some of them at this wonderful show in Louisville, to take with great caution the assertions made by the member(s) quoted above. When we tried to verify their assertions, we received either no answer or quite complicated and meaningless pseudo-scientific answers that no one understood....:???:
there's another option : A fake dealer and maker is trying to make new fakes.... as perfect as possible. He then starts an argument on a famous forum and after 2 weeks gets all the information available and all the "secret" details that allow old collectors to sort original/fakes. I remind you that Cousette describes himself as a maker of re-enacting equipment......
for this reason, I stopped participating in the post and feeding it with close up pictures of original items.
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Re: My poor pont of view

Post by Cousette » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:37 pm

Lost Skeleton wrote:
Cousette wrote:He would not say the science is a trickery.

He not it in that one drunkards to say that breath test does not work. The one who drank nothing is the first one to want to blow.
Good Heavens!

For you non-physicists out there, the radioactive isotopes Caesium-137 and Caesium-134 were initially released into the environment via nuclear weapons testing. The former has a half-life of 30.07 years. If I follow Cousette, anything made prior to 1945 should be Cs-137 free. I beg your pardon? Anything exposed to Cs-137 would be irradiated by the isotope regardless of when it was made or when it was exposed (don't forget Chernobyl).

For example, irradiate a rock with Cs-137 (simple enough to do). How old is a rock? It certainly precedes the A-bomb to the tune of 4.54 billion years.

The environment is in crisis, the global economy in collapse, and, for some, this nonsense takes priority. Clearly, the thing to do is consult Octopus Oracle Paul.

After all, he's batting 1000.

Pax vobiscum.

Oh, and thanks for turning a well-intentioned web reference into a referendum on collector paranoia.
Cs137 does not exist in the nature before 1945.

Only one rocks containing of Cs137 are eruptive rocks after 1945.

We look not for on-surface Cs137 but for that in the material.

Thus no concerns, it works...

At present the discussion in France is:

If we let bring new elements counter zigzag cover helmet, we leave the forum....

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Re: My poor pont of view

Post by Lost Skeleton » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:56 pm

Cousette wrote:Cs137 does not exist in the nature before 1945.

Only one rocks containing of Cs137 are eruptive rocks after 1945.

We look not for on-surface Cs137 but for that in the material.

Thus no concerns, it works...

At present the discussion in France is:

If we let bring new elements counter zigzag cover helmet, we leave the forum....
Test away, amigo, and be sure to publish your findings in Reports on Progress in Physics. The scientific world waits with bated breath. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a life to attend to.
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Post by b.loree » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:59 pm

Back to reality. I have posted pics of this JR 52 uberzug before however, this was prior to the present discussion about stitching. This uberzug was on an M15 marked to the Regt. The dealer refused to sell me the helmet but did part with the uberzug. Never could understand why and it really annoyed me! Obviously, the numbers and leather spike renforcement are hand stitched. The hooks are steel not brass
Image
Image

Sorry guys, I screwed up on posting foto #2 when I originally did this...got it right now though.
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Post by Lost Skeleton » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:06 pm

b.loree wrote:Back to reality.
:D :bravo:
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