Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

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stephane_avesnes
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my theory : all pre-war or early war sewing are zig zag type

Post by stephane_avesnes » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:15 pm

PRE WAR OR EARLY WAR FIELD COVERS NUMBERS :
pictures speak for themselves... more pics on http://www.imperialhelmets.com/helmet-field-covers/

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A RIR 119 THAT CAME COMPLETE WITH ITS COVER:

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A JR 106 THAT CAME COMPLETE WITH ITS COVER:

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Last edited by stephane_avesnes on Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Lost Skeleton » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:14 am

Thank you for posting the truly excellent specimens, Steve. Are we to infer that friend Cousette believes these did "not exist in the nature before 1945?"

For those obsessed with thread counts, micrometers, radiocarbon 14C and/or K-Ar dating, or (groan) C-137 short lived isotope counting (T age = ln(A 0/ A s) x 1/λ), check out this side by side comparison:

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Please consider the following:

1. imperialhelmets.com cover (left), Lost Skeleton cover (right).

2. imperialhelmets.com cover photographed on helmet, Lost Skeleton cover
photographed flat.

3. imperialhelmets.com photo color adjusted to highlight zigzag stitching,
Lost Skeleton cover photo not adjusted.

4. The number "5" on the imperialhelmets.com cover looks elongated
because the felt appears to have been stretched slightly when it was
applied. Though machine sewn, the process was not automated,
variations are to be expected.

5. Lost Skeleton cover photographed with an Olympus SP-350 digital
camera (AF Zoom 8.0-24.0mm 1:2.8-4.9 lens) at super macro setting.
I have no information regarding the imperialhelmets.com equipment.

Either they are both genuine or both fake, but they are clearly both the same.

I know where I stand on this "debate."
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thanks

Post by stephane_avesnes » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:23 am

My only comment : thanks for your nice comments :)
Steve

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Post by Gustaf » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:33 am

This has been an outstanding discussion, it would seem that the argument that the zigzag sewing is suspect can be put to rest, as there are too many examples that have well adjusted zigzag stitching, and not only do Steve's and Chas's IR 15 look to be sewn by the same machine, they appear to have been sewn by the same person.
Best
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OK, they are dolls, but they have kung fu grip! and weapons.

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more

Post by stephane_avesnes » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:35 am

I have always considered that original pre-war and early war numbers HAD to be sewn in zig zag.... ! only war made numbers are sewn with simpler techniques, in the field probably, 8-)

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Re: thanks

Post by Lost Skeleton » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:52 am

stephane_avesnes wrote:My only comment : thanks for your nice comments :)

You are more than welcome, Steve.

I just got around to reading the WA discussion to which Joe provided a link on Wednesday, 30 June 2010. I was merely being glib when I referenced Carbon 14 and Potassium Argon dating above. Now, I see that Monsieur Cousette was actually advocating 14C dating in that discussion.

Time to set the record straight.

I hold a B.A. in anthropology with a concentration in paleontology and archaeology. I am experienced in radiocarbon and radiometric chronometric dating and dendrochronology. These are the facts:

14C is utilized to determine the age of carbonaceous material in the fossil record up to 58,000 years BP (before present) with a calibration curve that can be as inaccurate as 11,000 years BP. Obviously, that's a long time before Pickelhaube field covers.

K-Ar radiometric dating, of which our expert friend apparently has no knowledge, is actually irrelevant to our discussion as it is employed to determine the age of rocks and minerals more than 100,000 years old, and, subsequently, the age of fossils contained within that strata.

Since my original comments on 137Cs, I've been boning up on this thermonuclear byproduct, whose peak value is actually 1963 ± 2 years. 137Cs "dating" is conducted exclusively on sediment. It is a mobile isotope, producing unreliable results.

Beyond testing for the presence of anachronistic synthetic fibers, comparison with known original examples remains the only legitimate alternative. The rest is double-talk.

I'm convinced the arguments against contemporary (period) zigzag stitching are baseless and false.

Finally, I'm more than a little ticked that a period cloth "replicator" with selfish motives, an agenda, and a completely screwy take on science, can turn rational thought on its head and, then, completely vanish when his infantile bluff is called.

Good riddance!!!
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lol

Post by stephane_avesnes » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:21 pm

I like your last comments and I'm actually loughing :D :D :D :D :D :D

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Post by joerookery » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:25 pm

Joe, about your question :

"The example below has hooks to attach the maneuver band to the helmet cover. I have no idea what it connected to."
Thank you so very much Jean-Pierre I finally fixed the website.
VR/Joe
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Post by b.loree » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:35 pm

Well Chas...you sure set the last nail in that coffin!! Excellent. I think we are truly back to reality. Selfishly, I still wish some big ass collector in Europe, the US, anywhere could help ID my Hessen Arty 61 uberzug. I have posted pics on the forum but to no avail. Both Chas and Tony have handled it. It is authentic. There must be some one out there, that has a similar style of uberzug marked to a different unit even.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Schilfgrün Fabrics

Post by Cousette » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:18 am

Just for you on actual copy of Schilfgrün fabric, made with only natural fiber and 19's technics.

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And a comment about his picture :

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Normaly the fabrics number would be made with a punch and be identical and symetrical...

Those 15 have been cutted up with shears (You took a french officer trouser, you made a paper shap, and you stick on the shap, and lets go).

You are right lost skeletton the physical datation is no for this year, the only way is to know all the techniques of the counterfeiters, and for it I am an encyclopedia.

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Post by chrispaulodale » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:19 am

Hello folks,

Our good friend Peter H posted this photo on the AHF. I thought it belonged here as it is the only time I've seen the East Asians wearing a cover, even more exciting as they have numbers on them... 5th East Asian Inf Regt.

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The photo is from http://www.kopfwelten.org/kp/personen/kessler/

... it's just a shame we can't blow up the photo an examine the stitching :D

BTW That last conversation about stitching was great to a point, but thanks Lost Skeleton for putting everyone straight with some educated thoughts!

Cheers
Chris
German Colonial Uniforms Website-
www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk

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Post by joerookery » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:46 pm

We have seen patches on covers before however, this seems different to me. Patch applied with numbers perhaps covering other numbers?

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ps948 by joerookery, on Flickr

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ps948b by joerookery, on Flickr
VR/Joe
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Post by emilysoft11 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:05 am

Very interested in.

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by RoyA » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:57 pm

I'd like to congratulate Chas for this suberb exposé; thank you Chas!

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by RoyA » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:19 pm

Here is an exceedingly rare Probe (sealed sample) Mannschaften Überzug mit Manöverband.
The tag is untampered with; the twine loops around the Manöverband and through the side of the überzug.

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Last edited by RoyA on Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by RoyA » Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:21 pm

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by Lost Skeleton » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:02 pm

Incredible specimen, Roy! :love10: :thumbright:

Friend "Cousette" need doubt no longer… :sign7:
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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:26 pm

Wow, that is a great piece!

Way to go Roy!

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by Gustaf » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:05 am

Yes, but has the wax been carbon dated? This is a very nice example, Probe items are a one in a thousand if not rarer.
Best
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OK, they are dolls, but they have kung fu grip! and weapons.

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by Cousette » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:59 am

Lost Skeleton wrote:Incredible specimen, Roy! :love10: :thumbright:

Friend "Cousette" need doubt no longer… :sign7:
I doubt more and more....

I have found some of the FR73 uberzug in germany, and very discount (amazing that a very rare item in discount....)

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One have been sold, in ebay shipper (The buyer, it is me. And I even asked for one discount)....

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It was a direct purchase, and as for a week nobody wanted it. it cost me, only 150 euro. What is really cheap for an uberzug, new, of a mythical regiment... Why nobody want buy it in germany ???

The sewings zigzag good date of 1930, they are very common on the shoulder straps of the end of Reichswehr and IIIrd Reich (and some pairs of WW1facked)....

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by souvigny » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:44 pm

here it is my contribution to this post.... my uberzug has painted numbers. I also have an original IR 25 uberzug with red numbers, I am going to shoot it properly to add some informations about the famous stitching of the red numbers. In the meantime....

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by souvigny » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:21 am

As promised here they are the pictures of an helmet whith its original cover: this helmet has been found by myself at the Paris flea market (Les puces) 3 years ago. The furnitures dealer who sold it to me found it in a Orleans house when buying the furnitures following an estate. This was the third time in 10 years of weekly dealers day early visit to the flea market. Surprinsingly the last 2 times it was at the same Orleans furnitures dealer and in 2008 it was a prussian helmet too, perfectly stamped of the IR n° 25 again!

IR 25 helmet found november 2008 at the Paris flea market:

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Battle damaged:

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As you can notice, this normal prussian helmet has his spike unscrewed. It is the A.K.O dated 16th of june 1913 allowing the IR 25 and the FR80 to wear the black Haarbusch in full dress (Larcade).

The following year, I found this one at the same place:

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The cover is so weak that it is not possible to remove it entirely from the helmet. At some point the fabric is glued to the helmet leather:

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So, none could question the anthenticity of this cover with its red figures originally stitched I guess? On that one the figures are hand-sewn, they are of the same style and size than the ones of the cover with a zig-zag stitching.

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I hope this will helps in this passionate debate about the mint condition covers on the market for a long time now. My version is that these helmet covers have been discovered in an old factory located in the former east germany. I also want to add that in the Jürgen Kraus book "the german army", verlag militaria, page 59, 60 & 61, you will find an impressing display of helmets covers from the Bayerisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt with many "proBe"... Most of them seems to have hand-sewn figures.......

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by 911car » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:49 pm

Very interesting finds and touching relics, Souvigny! Your R119 helmet reminds me of the D25 helmet I found (also in France...) and presented before on the forum:

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by souvigny » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:38 am

Bonjour 911car,

je pense que nous nous sommes rencontrés à Paris lorsque j'étais au Louvre des antiquaires? Vous êtes Bruno P. si je me souviens bien et êtes un collectionneur très avisé! J'espère que nous aurons l'occasion de nous revoir (j'étais à LA tout l'été 2008).

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by edwin » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:02 pm

Amazing! I'd wish something like this would turn up on a Dutch flea market :-?

Regards,

Edwin

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by feel76 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:38 am

Hi,

This is my latest find. An Überzug of the Württemberg IR180 with Manoeverband.

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Re: Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug

Post by feel76 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:51 am

and my Mannschaften Artillerieüberzug

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