Kokarden

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Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:55 pm

I decided to post this pic as a bit of an educational tool for fellow collectors. I also think that we need to start a thread on kokarden especially those rare ones from the smaller states or rare variations as in this case. There are a couple of unique things here....so what are they my friends?
Image
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Re: Kokarden

Post by edwin » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:17 pm

b.loree wrote: I also think that we need to start a thread on kokarden especially those rare ones from the smaller states or rare variations as in this case.
:bravo: I'll second that!

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:30 pm

Some additional rare kokarden:
Image
Top row left-right Wurttemberg, Oldenbourg (JR91), Lower left Saxe Duchies JR 95, right Saxe Weimar (JR94)
A note to beginner collectors: See how in each case of these originals the centre hole has been punched out from the back side of the kokarde leaving a slight lip around the hole...one way of telling an original from a repro!
Image

A new addition to my collection, M91 kokarde for JR 93 Anhalt. My thanks to Randy Trawnik for a surprise gift!
Image

Image
This is now on an M95 OR helmet that I have marked to JR93. Unfortunately, it came with Prussian wappen but we know from original pictures that this was done so it is correct. Naturally, I would love to find an original pre war Anhalt wappen for it.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by ww1czechlegion » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:31 pm

Great examples, Brian! Thanks for posting them! :bravo:

All the Best,

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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:35 am

Great closeups Brian!
Here's photos of the Prussian & National 6.5 cm Cavalry Cockades (see how these look next to their Infantry counterparts):
Image
Image
Last edited by RON on Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:54 am

Great pics Ron. Those cavalry kokarden are hard to find let alone in that condition. Still no one has responded to my question in the first post????
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Re: Kokarden

Post by reservist1 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:34 pm

A comparison photo of additional kokardes is at the following topic.
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... 429#p39429" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:13 pm

The cavalry cockades went straight on my JZP Metalhelme as posted here.

I'll risk answering your initial question Professor Loree: The non-serrated cockades are for the Saxon M95/15 EM Pickelhaube, aren't they? I remember you recently sold a much nicer/minty Reichs non-serrated cockade on eBay...
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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:31 pm

Good answer Ron but no cigar. Yes sold that minty Reichs Saxon....stupid should have sold this one and put the Ebay one on my HR20 busby!
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Re: Kokarden

Post by ww1czechlegion » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:52 pm

Hi Brian,

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about a couple of unique items you asked about in your first posting on this thread.

I see one non-serrated edge kokarden in the National Colors that goes with a Saxon kokarden which would typically be non-serrated. I've seen these specially notched hole kokarden used on filzhaube/ersatz felt helmets. I've also seen these special notched kokarden on the ersatz "kit helmets" made from pressed metal.

There's also a Prussian State kokarden with the special notched hole for the m91 side post, and I would guess this goes on a filzhaube or one of the metal ersatz kit helmets.

I have as of yet to see one of these special "notched" kokarden on an unmessed with leather body helmet. I've only seen them on the kit helmets, and the felt helmets.

Do those answers win the cigar or cookie?

All the Best,

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:22 pm

You nailed it Alan! I also just checked my Prussian kit helmet....both kokarden are notched as you described. Anyone else have "V" notched kokarden which are not Saxon or Prussian? Seems to me those ersatz tin kit helmets came with Baden, Bavarian and Wurttemberg wappen.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:08 am

Now wait a minute, are we talking a good old handmade CUBAN cigar (since they're not banned in Canada)?

Actually, you 2 confused me now. When I bought my Saxon M15 Infantry EM Pickelhaube, it came without chinstrap or cockades. I went on and got me a pair of non-serrated Saxon Kokarden from Sergio Semino and they both have that notch (see closeup below)... Would these be OK on my helmet? [-o<
Image
Image
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Re: Kokarden

Post by poniatowski » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:20 am

Perhaps the notched Kokarden were converted from earlier spares with smaller holes...

:D Ron
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Re: Kokarden

Post by weirdpyramid » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:22 am

Great post! I had thought of it too but didn't get around to doing it. Hopefully it will become a "sticky" post because it is a very complex issue. Lots and lots of fakes and repros out there. It would be good to see fakes next to originals, especially the rare kokarden for color comparison.

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:46 am

Your Saxon Kokarden are fine Ron. I would like to see a pic of the infamous Saxon landes kokarde with serrated edges. Anyone have one out there? I had an M15 Saxon OR's helmet with original serrated kokarde but had to sell it in the "Loree Divorce" melt down.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:17 pm

Hey Brian, is this what you're looking for? http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imperial ... 43266.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the description, Peter says this one was worn on both the M95 and M15 pickelhauben... If this is true, what would be the difference between the latter and an M15 Saxon Infantry pickelhaube like mine fitted with the non-serrated cockades displayed above :-?
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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:24 pm

That is the one! Stop worrying Ronny....there is no problem. Lots of M15s have the round edge kokarden. I would speculate though that the serrated was a war time expedient. I have never seen an M95 Saxon Haube with serrated edge landes kokarde. However, I doubt that "stores" people lost any sleep over this issue!
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Re: Kokarden

Post by edwin » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:06 pm

Gents,

Here is my little contribution to this interesting topic:

Image

It concerns a national cockade as well as a Bavarian state cockade for a EM95 helmet.

Best regards,

Edwin

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:59 pm

Great pics Edwin. Thank you. Now we need the "silver" variation of the Bavarian Landes Kokarde. Yours has the white background but they also used a silver paint. Again I had one on a helmet but.....SOLD! I would also urge collectors to check out the colour on the back side of these kokarden. The Saxon is painted white on the rear side...the Bavarian black with a white front side. Anyone out there know the process by which these kokarden were painted??
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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:32 am

I'm assuming the base (e.g. black, white, gray or silver, yellow or gold, blue, green, etc.) was dipped and the rest was hand-painted?
Here's my Bayern (Silver) and Baden (Golden) Kokarden counterparts... I know that the Baden Kokarde also came with regular flashy yellow paint, same as for Bavaria. I'm guessing they realized the latter would be cheaper to the war effort?

Surprisingly however, my Baden cockade is slightly thicker/bulges more than its Reichs mate as per the 3rd photo hereafter:

Image
Image
Image
Last edited by RON on Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kokarden

Post by Khukri » Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:08 am

Great topic !
Perhaps it could be a great idea to compare fakes and originals.
Thank you,
Francis

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Re: Kokarden

Post by weirdpyramid » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:11 am

A Hessen EM kokarde addition for you guys.

Image

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Re: Kokarden

Post by joerookery » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:48 am

I cannot post pics from this mobile but a very interesting Saxe-Weimar cockade http://www.pickelhauben.net/pickelhaube/94thOR.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one had the entire community stumped for years. It was one reason I did all of that research on the minor states. Anyway Saxe -Weimar changed their color scheme And. Name in 1897. This is an old one as opposed to Brian's new one.

I have never seen any photographic evidence of the smaller Saxon serrated cockade. I am not part of the absolute school but I have seen a few pictures. I used to have one. Thought it was original and sold it to James. Police???

There is an older thread that I think Chas started where he laid out fakes and real side by side. I failed miserably to spot the problems but it was very educational.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:44 am

There are photos of a fake Reichs cockade I once bought & returned here.
Last edited by RON on Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by edwin » Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:16 pm

RON wrote:There are photos of a fake Reichs cockade I once bought & returned here:
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They look good to me at first sight but I am sure that you are right that they are fake. It would therefore be very informative to have a good comparison of a fake and original cockade.

Best regards,

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Re: Kokarden

Post by pointystuff » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:59 pm

Back in 1992 or so, there was a fellow in the northeastern part of the U.S. who supposedly had a set of original dies for stamping Kokarden.

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Re: Kokarden

Post by argonne » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:48 pm

Hi Gents,
Here is my small contribution to this very interesting post:

First, a set of cockades worn on my M95 Mecklenburg-Strelitz GR89 II Bataillon Mannschaft helmet (same as on Mecklenburg-Schwerin helmets):

Image

Image

Then a set of cockades from my saxon M95 Tr.A.12 helmet, vulkan fiber war production. Those cockades are made of very thin tin-plate metal:

Image

Image

And last but not least, a very interesting combination, a Portepee-Unteroffizier Reichs-cockade and a Württemberg Offizier state cockade, worn on the same helmet (!), a PB13, GR119 or GR123 haube, which wearer was an Portepee-Unteroffizier der Reserve in peace time (probably a one year volunteer who did not get his Offizier Patent) and who passed to an Offizierstellvertreter during the war, because of great loss of officers during the first months of the war. Both cockades are mounted on german silver M91 side posts, under the typical M15 officer chinscales. Note that the cardboard discs have been originally removed from the back of both cockades, to reduce the extrem tightness between chinscales and side posts.

Image

Image

Philippe
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Re: Kokarden

Post by edwin » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:30 pm

argonne wrote:Hi Gents,
Here is my small contribution to this very interesting post:
Great addition Philippe! Nice cockades :D

Regards,

Edwin

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:32 am

Something that I ran into on a Wurtt private purchase OR helmet with an officer liner and M91 chin scales...the kokarden were non removable. The M91 posts had been put on over the kokarden so they could not be taken off. Has anyone else seen this done?
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Re: Kokarden

Post by reservist1 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:20 pm

See this topic

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:58 pm

Thanks R1. The helmet I was refering to was exactly like that. The only difference was that it had a private purchase round base spike not cruciform.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by joerookery » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:58 pm

Then there is this piece of that puzzle.
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7364" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Kokarden

Post by RON » Wed May 01, 2013 2:48 pm

As posted elsewhere, this nice Uffz. mit Portepee Reichs Kokarde will complete/correct the only "colonial" helmet I could afford from Tony Cowan, namely a Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft Polizeiwachtmeister (Imperial Constabulary Police Sergeant-Major) Pickelhaube M1895 that I was able to clearly identify with the help of Glenn and Joe:

Image
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Re: Kokarden

Post by Lars13 » Sat May 31, 2014 12:52 pm

Standard Mannschaften Kokarden; they fit the M91 Knopf properly, have the correct size and colour and don’t light up under ultraviolet light (not sure if that’s relevant). They even have the lip around the centre hole as if it was punched out from the backside.

They are however made from some sort of plastic (light and flexible), that has been chromed or nickelled (visible where the paint has chipped off), then painted black, and finally painted red and white.

Don’t know whether these are light-weight originals, ersatz or elaborate fakes.

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:24 pm

My first reaction is that these are "resin" copies and are thus fakes. The edges of these things are soft and rounded, they lack definition like originals. The colouring though is quite good.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by poniatowski » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:37 pm

b.loree wrote:My first reaction is that these are "resin" copies and are thus fakes. The edges of these things are soft and rounded, they lack definition like originals. The colouring though is quite good.
Casting in resin and electroplating is not beyond the reach of home hobbyists. The question is, why plate them and not just paint them, if they're just for show as temporary replacements?
You are right on with the colors looking very nice. I bought a helmet once with RTV (Room Temp. Vulcanizing) rubber fakes on it, but otherwise the helmet was good. An easy fix. Unfortunately, I threw those out.

:D Ron
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Re: Kokarden

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:47 pm

interesting topic, found this for sale Ad in the Spring 1975 issue of Kaiserzeit, selling rubber air brushed setts of kokarden...

James

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Re: Kokarden

Post by joerookery » Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:52 am

Goodness gracious James – well spotted! :thumb up:
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Re: Kokarden

Post by Lars13 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:46 am

Thanks James,

I think you solved the mystery =D>

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:37 pm

Yes, that explains everything James! Well done.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by MG34NZ » Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:39 pm

these two came attached to an OR's M1915 helmet, what type of helmet would they suite?
They are essentially standard OR's cockades with the addition of a disc which would have been maybe silver washed when new?

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Re: Kokarden

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:02 pm

They are NCO kokarden and would be ok for OR helmet.

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Re: Kokarden

Post by MG34NZ » Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:08 pm

J.LeBrasseur wrote:They are NCO kokarden and would be ok for OR helmet.

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Re: Kokarden

Post by MG34NZ » Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:52 pm

pics123 004.jpg
This is another I am curious about, the Prussian cockade is 55mm in diameter and is pictured with a "standard" 48-50mm national cockade. Is this just a manufacturing variation or is it for a specific type of helmet? Any ideas??

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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:44 am

I am bit confused Andy....the Reichs cockade (red,white,black) is the larger one at 55mm and the Prussian (black,white) is smaller at 50mm, I think you mixed these up. Anyway, it's obvious what you meant. Cavalry wore larger kokarden so your Reichs kokarde could be cavalry. I have 2 kokarden from my Baden Dragoner (private purchase) helmet that match the size of your Reichs kokarde.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by joerookery » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:20 am

Andy,

Good question. Very good question. In my mind still very grey. there are some anomalies I just cannot seem to square. Size of these seems to be all over the place. One possibility indeed is manufacturer. But I do not know.

I visited your country however and believe we have much to learn as a nation from the things you have accomplished in yours.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:02 am

In regard to my Baden Dragoner, it is private purchase with officer style chin scales. However, the kokarden which came with it and I feel are original to the helmet are OR's M91 (large hole). This makes no sense according to what should be there but there it is.
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Re: Kokarden

Post by b.loree » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:46 pm

Comparison pics of my Baden Dragoner kokarden (53mm) and a set from my Baden Filz helme (48mm):

Image

Image
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