The Humble M91 Side Post

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The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:34 pm

As a restoration person, I have assembled a number of parts in my travels. Here is a little foto essay on the parts and some of the variations of the famous M91 side post.
Image
The basic parts of the M91 post all of which are soldered together. Lacking any official descriptors of the parts, I will make up my own: the tin backing plate, the post head, the wire prongs, the "V" point and the center post, the tines of which, are bent back over the backing plate. Note that the one center post in this pic has the V point remaining while the other does not. This style slid into a slot in the post head of some M91 models.
Four variations of the M91 post head, there are probably more and another reason why, my fellow collectors that $250 original Ebay chin strap wont fit on your hat!!:
Image
The back side:
Image
Another very unusual M91 variation which I will call the "stitch on" M91. This came off an M15 Garde scrapper. The other post was the usual M91. This was sticthed on to the shell with heavy duty cotton un dyed thread. Note the lack of detail compared to the other posts shown here.
Image
Image
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by stuka f » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:55 am

I like thise thread too!
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by edwin » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:36 pm

Thanks for starting a interesting set of threads! The variation in pickelhaubes and their parts still amazes me after several years of collecting. Its never safe to generalize on these matters.

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The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Khukri » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:45 pm

:bravo:
Great job !
Francis

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by pointystuff » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:56 am

Very interesting.
How about posts attached with a wide split tab?
Were they unique to Bavaria?

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:05 pm

Hmmm...have not seen that on military hauben. Anyone have a picture? I do know that it is common on Bavarians to have only one wire prong plus the centre post holding the post on the shell. All others have the typical 2 wire prong set up.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by reservist1 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:05 am

see this thread for an example of an issue Prussian helmet having M91 side lugs with wide split tabs.

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... 720#p54720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by reservist1 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by RON » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:14 am

Very useful thread Brian! :thumb up:
There's a couple more examples down this thread: http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopi ... ry+Officer" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Khukri » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:14 am

Still learning each and every time !
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by pointystuff » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:50 pm

Yes, the posts with wide split tabs were on the decayed remains of a Bavarian helmet (square visor, cruciform base).

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by pointystuff » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:46 pm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/scarce-Luftschi ... 3f265f311c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Split post tabs on a shako.

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by RON » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:40 pm

This Shako has what seems to be a tampered with post-WW1 feldzeichen...
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Streptile » Sat Oct 17, 2015 4:47 pm

Thanks for this very informative post Brian. I spent an hour in line at my local post office today reading through your threads on side-posts, spines, cockades, even spike discs.

I do have a question about the M91 side-posts. From this photo, I don't understand how the pieces fit together:

Image

Specifically, how does the center-post with the "V" (on the right, above the piece of wire) fit with the overall M91 side-post, which seems to have the "V" as an integral part (below)?

Image

Maybe I just need to get my hands on one of these to understand, but I've read through Kaiser's Bunker and this site, and I can't quite get it yet. Any help you can give me will be gratefully received.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Sat Oct 17, 2015 6:32 pm

Not a problem Trevor, I will try to explain and you are correct, the fact that as yet, you do not have one/a set, is the crux of the matter. The "V" point column with its split brad ends fits into a slot in the head of the M 91 post. This column (for lack of a better word....perhaps tube???) along with the wires are soldered into the M 91 post head. One of the posts on your helmet still has the "V" tube remaining but the M 91 post heads are gone. So lets now think of the M 91 post, as a solid soldered unit...we have have "Mr. V tube" with split tangs on the tube end , 2 wire prongs and the M 91 post head. There are 3 holes in each side of your helmet, a big one for the end of the "V" tube and 2 small ones for the wire prongs. In manufacture, the tube with its split tangs, is inserted in its hole along with the wire prongs. Next, a tin washer (shown in my pics here) is placed over over each of these 3 and the tangs plus wire prongs are bent over to lock the M 91 post against the helmet shell. There are pics here on the forum of the inside of a side post locked into position. Hope this helps.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Streptile » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:00 am

Totally perfect explanation; thank you Brian.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:37 pm

Well Trevor, your excellent questions have got me looking at the pictures again and re thinking. There are actually 5 parts to the humble M 91 post: the post head, the "V" ring, the tube with split tangs and the wire prongs. If memory serves, on your helmet you have a tang tube on one side and on the other a tube with V ring.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Tarquin » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:20 pm

Here's a totally "newby" question. How was the Kokarde kept in place by the M91 side post?
I can see how on some Pickelhauben a Rosette would hold the Kokarde in place with prongs, but what about the M91?
Does this have anything to do with magnets??
(Just kidding about the magnets) :D

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by joerookery » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:46 pm

Chinstrap held in place.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:55 am

Tarquin, there were M91 kokarden that had a "V" cut out in the side of the hole punched for the post. This was matched up to the "V" point on the post then slipped on then moved. The "V" point on the post helped lock the kokade on. We have a kokarden thread here in this section so you can see pics of this type of kokarde. I think we have established that the Prussian tin kit helmets all had these "V" kokarden originally. The Saxons also used this kokade. It has been my experience, that only these 2 states used the "V" cut out kokade but if any other member has one from an additional state, I would like to see it.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by kaiser » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:11 pm

i have one tin blech pickelhaube and it has those v-cut cocardes and these arr pruisian ones
did not even know that these special ones existed until i buyed this helmet
is there a reason known that only pruisian an sachsen used these cocardes and not the other states
or should differend manufacturers be the answor

jonas

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:28 pm

I don't know why just Prussian and Saxon Jonas. For years I thought just Saxe but then we got discussing the "kit helmets" here and Joe posted a picture showing them being snapped together. The "V" kokarden then was mentioned and I checked the kokarden on my Prussian helmet and both are V cut outs.
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by argonne » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:12 pm

As asked by Brian on another thread, here is a photographic comparaison making clear what some French collectors have observed on many helmets. We are thinking this difference is due to the differents periods, not to different helmet makers...But just our humble opinion based on many observations. Just look to your Haubes closer too!

A typical side post produced after 1895, small dome in the middle (M95 and M15 helmets):

Image

A early side post, produced between 1891 and 1895, big dome (M91 helmets):

Image

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by b.loree » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:40 pm

Thanks Philippe, great photos!
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:17 pm

As Philippe has said, this is a humble opinion offered as an observation by collectors in France, who are quite knowledgeable.

So it is an opinion, not a factual way to date your M91 post.

You will find absolutely untouched M91 Pickelhaube, with solid rear spine, rotatable neck vents, screw post on the Wappen, in other words, textbook M91 that do not have a large center dome on the M91 post. So perhaps it is an evolutionary issue, where some came out with large, and some came out with small domes, and by 1895 it has standardized to the smaller dome.

For example, here is an M91 that is untouched, dated 1891. the M91 post is very large thick, and long. Quite different from the "standard" M91 post. But it has the smaller dome.

More photos of the helmet HERE

Image

Image
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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by argonne » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:18 pm

Tony,

I agree with your nuance.
But I do not think that we will ever find a "pure" M95 with such big dome M91 side posts. Helmets that are looking like a M95 with such M91 big dome side posts are always M91 which have been modified to M95 :wink:

The example that you are showing in your last intervention is another variation, which is pretty flat, often encountered on cavalry helmets too, even later production in this arm.

Here are similar ones on my DR19 Wachtmeister helmet dated 1899:

Image

Image

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Re: The Humble M91 Side Post

Post by poniatowski » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:19 am

Tony,

Large and thick for use of chin scales as well as a leather strap? Now, I am wondering if chin scales were an option for parade or special duty and the strap for daily wear? :-k

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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