The Saxon cockade

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The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:57 am

Image
This really started as a question from Francis that I did not have a good answer for. While we have been dodging pinning this baby down maybe it's about time we stop parsing words and figure this entirely out. The questions started with what do the portapee Saxon cockade's look like? What reference book can you see them clearly? I don't know. I do not have one of these midgrade and photographic evidence that I do have seems terribly inconclusive. I have two officer single piece cockades.
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. Did the Saxons have a multiple piece type of cockade for officers? Was there a silver ring on the Fähnriche? What sizes were used? Were there serrated cockade's?

Starting with the serrated cockade I believe they only existed for cavalry. All other troops used a smooth rounded one I believe. This belief comes from an inability to find a single serrated foot troops cockade in a picture. I have seen such cockade's. 45 to 48 mm with serrated edges. I actually sold one to James LeBrasseur years ago. I certainly would not want to cheat in the of my friends or anybody else but at the time I thought they were real. I challenge anyone to come up with a good picture and hope that you do!
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I do not think I have seen any silver rings on any kind of cockade.
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Sizes seem to vary a lot similar to the spikes of Saxons some of the OYV mounted types seem to have had absolutely huge cockades.

So there you have the start please add your examples and comments. We can do this!
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by b.loree » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:22 pm

I have never seen a 2 piece Saxon officer kokarde in all my years of collecting, only the type you have shown Joe. Regarding the Serrated edge OR's kokarde I have always believed that they were an original expedient for the Saxon M15. There is a nice original looking one the Collectors Guild right now.
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:53 pm

I want to show some too...

First are a few loose OR and Officers I have, as you can see 3 different types of Saxon OR kokarden.

Other photo's are pics of some of the Officer Kokarden I have on helmets, many little differences, sorry no 2 piece construction, I have never seen one either, not saying they do not exist, just never seen one.

James


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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by b.loree » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:37 pm

Great pics James and very instructive. Do you accept serrated Saxon OR's as being legitimate? I see 2 nice examples. In addition, I have never seen a Baden, Wurtt, or Hessen 2 piece officer kokarde.
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:38 pm

b.loree wrote:Great pics James and very instructive. Do you accept serrated Saxon OR's as being legitimate? I see 2 nice examples.
Brian- I sure do, I think like you do, they are for M15's and later

James
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Khukri » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:55 am

This is excellent !
Thank you !

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by reservist1 » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:14 am

Saxon Jaeger kokarde is on the left below. Serated kokarde on the right is Saxon Schwere Reiter. Two piece officer kokardes exist for Saxon Schwere Reiter. See The German Cavalry from 1871 to 1914 by Herr and Nguyen, pages 294 through 297.

Image

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:53 am

Thank you R1 now I have to manhandle the big book off the shelf. That should be informative. The next questions are what does Verlag-Militaria say about the serrated ones? What about Johan, Bruno and Karel? :read2:


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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Adler » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:48 am

Ok Joe, here's how I always have thought about it...
All Saxon kokarden are without the serrated edge, except for Kgl. Sächs. Garde-Reiter-Regiment and the Kgl. Sächs. Karabiner-Regiment. They would wear the kokarden with serrated edge. The Saxon Ulanen would also wear the serrated reichs kokarde on the right side of their tschapka.
The non-serrated kokarden for OR and officers are always in one piece, even for a general's helmet.
The serrated kokarden for Saxon cavalry OR's are always made in one piece.
The serrated kokarden for Saxon cavalry officers are usually made in two pieces. The center green ring for the land kokarde and the silver one for the reichs kokarde usually have a fine V shaped pattern.
The serrated reichs kokarde for officers Ulanen are the same as for infantry.
Imo this should be correct, but please don't hold back if it's not. I'm sure others will know more than I do about the subject...

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:40 pm

Thank you Karel!

I actually pulled down the old reference books. So I think we have it this way currently:

No such thing as a "single ring" Fähnriche type cockade at all.

cavalry serrated everyone else not so much.

We have no example of a later war seriation style.

I hope there are lots of cards and letters contradicting this but I cannot find examples. Brian and James I think the ball is in your court. Is there a reference book that shows a serrated infantry cockade? :study: :la: :confused2:
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by poniatowski » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:25 am

I think one problem with the cards, Joe, is that so many of them are full length, rather than 'bust' and have covers over the helmets, so it's difficult to tell what the cockades actually looked like. I'm afraid I'm no help with examples either, as the only Saxon M15 I have is with the non-serrated cockades.

:D Ron
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:26 am

I understand the difficulty. In addition, most of the pictures were taken in the training base before they shipped out. You don't see a lot of "later war" at home photos. However, not a single example. Nothing in the reference books. A lot of silence from a lot of knowledgeable people. This has been a question that has nagged and we avoided for a long time. So I just trying to force the issue. Where did all the serrated cockades come from? The lack of a Fähnrich cockade makes you wonder who else did not have this option? :coffee2: :lurk: S
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by b.loree » Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:15 pm

I have no proof of a serrated Saxon Kokarde being used in period pictures, that would certainly end the discussion. I can comment on the construction of James 2 examples and the one for sale on the Collector Guild, they have been punched out correctly. The originals were punched from the rear side out so there is always that lip around the hole. All the reproductions are punched the opposite ie from the front side. I have not even seen an M15 Saxon in my travels on this side of the Atlantic with any type of kokarde. They are always missing. The one Saxon M15 I did have had to have a serrated edge kokarde purchased to complete it, one that I thought was an original. I do have a Saxon M95 that came with both non serrated orignal kokarden. If some member has a Saxon M15 with original smooth edge kokaden, I would like to see it.
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Adler » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:08 am

Here you go Brian...

Adler

M15
M15 Saksen 01.jpg
M95
M95 Saksen 01.jpg
M95 Ersatz Cork helmet
M95 Saksen kurk 01.jpg
M95 Leib Grenadier Regt 100
M95 Saksen Leib-Grenadier-Regt. Nr.100 02.jpg
M95 Private purchase
M95 Saksen Res 01.jpg

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Adler » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:13 am

Some other pics...

Adler

M95 Militair Beamte Officer
M95 Saksen Off. Mil. Beamte 02.jpg
M95 Res. Officer Infanterie
M95 Saksen Res. Off. Inf. 02.jpg
M95 Res. Officer Artillerie
M97 Saksen Artillerie Res Off 02.jpg
Here the serrated Kokarde...

Garde Reiter Officer
Garde Reiter off 02.jpg
Garde Reiter OR
8229566509_5ba38d9c07.jpg

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Glennj » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:23 am

Joe,

let me add what the officers' dress regulations of 1912 have to say on the subject:

Leather Helmet:

Approximately 5.5cm diameter with smooth edge.

Metal Helmet:

In general as per the leather helmet, heavily serrated at the edge, approximately 6.5cm diameter.

Shako:

As per the leather helmet, 3.3.cm diameter.

Additionally this from the 1904 Clothing Regulations for NCOs and Soldiers:

Leather Helmet:

4.7 cm with smooth edge.

Metal Helmet:

As per Leather Helmet, heavily serrated at the edge, 6.5 cm diameter.

Shako:

As per the leather helmet, 3.3.cm diameter.

Specifically for Feldwebel/Wachtmeister/Vizefeldwebel/Vizewachtmeister/Fähnrich etc.

is silver plated and has a green circular cutout (Auskehlung).

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:06 am

That is wonderful Glenn!so there is no mention of a midgrade cockade for anything other than the shako. I think Brian's analysis is good. But what were those serrated cockades used for?
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Glennj » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:35 am

Joe,

none whatsoever, the only other cockades being mentioned being the Reichskokarden and in the case of the Machine Gun Detachments, Verkehrstruppen, Hussars and Ulanen, these being the same size as the leather helmet, i.e. 5.5cm and 4.7cm for officers and NCOs/Soldiers respectively.

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by argonne » Sat Nov 15, 2014 2:57 pm

Glennj wrote:
Specifically for Feldwebel/Wachtmeister/Vizefeldwebel/Vizewachtmeister/Fähnrich etc.

is silver plated and has a green circular cutout (Auskehlung).

Regards
Glenn
Hi Gents,
Very interesting, Glenn! :thumb up:

I really would love to see such a saxon cockade with "Auskehlung" for a Portepee Unteroffizier!
Does it has exact the same size as a saxon cockade worn by officers?

And what about cockades worn by Feldwebel in the hanseatic city of Hamburg? I think same size as officer but with a bigger central hole for the M91 side post :-k
Maybe like this one?

Image

Image

This cockade is worn on my RJR76 Mannschafts Haube...But same size as an officer cockade...Thats the reason I am thinking the helmet has belong to a Vize-Feldwebel or Feldwebel :-k

Sorry for being a little out of this topic (about saxon cockade :oops: )

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:14 pm

Philippe that is a good question. I never liked these cockades. Unless all the markings matched up it was just too easy to change the prussian one. But it is a good question. Here is another one. What is that cockade doing on the right side of the helmet?

Imageps147b by joerookery, on Flickr

Imageps670 by joerookery, on Flickr

Imageps84b by joerookery, on Flickr

And then there is this all these of course are JR 75 not JR 76

Imageps883 by joerookery, on Flickr

Imageps883b by joerookery, on Flickr
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by aicusv » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:08 pm

As to why on the right. I post before about talking to a vet about skin straps and how they had to switch the one strap between their pickelhaub and their steel helmet. MAybe these soldier just got it wrong when putting the strap back on?

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by argonne » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:42 am

Joe,

You are right, much curious things observed with Hamburg hanseatic cockades...
My helmet comes straight from the family of the french militarian medic who brought it back after the battle of the Oise, September 1914. Never has been in a collection before. Helmet is marked R76 and RJR76 II B.
Helmet had only the hanseatic cokade on the left, nothing on the right even no traces of wear.
It´s well known that hanseatic people always were very proud about their "free city" and not liked very much the hegemonian prussian system. I think the Reich cokade has been removed by the soldier himself...

Philippe


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Image
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Khukri » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:29 am

A translation of J-L Larcade Volume I chapter on the Kokarden: "In general"
Francis
Chapter 5:
Generalities about the Kokarden/Cocades:
Reglementations on the wearing of the Kokarden/Cocades: until 1897 this proved to be a highly complex matter, especially regarding the small States within the Army of the Norddeutscher Bund; the later Kaiserreich (Reich).
In order to avoid multiple and unnecessary repetitions, it seems a good idea to have a small chapter on the distinctive colors of these attributes and how they had to be worn. We describe the different colors of this Kokarden gradually from the outside inwards.
The THREE types of Kokarden are:
*the "Land kokarde"-"Country Cocade": in the colours of the “Land”-“Country”. On the Tschako's these colours are found on the "Feldzeichen"( or “National”)
* the "Deutsche Kokarde": the “German Cocade” during the Revolutionary Period (21 March 1848 until 14 March 1851). YELLOW-RED-BLACK. Worn on the left side of the helmet.
* the "Reichs Kokarde": the “Imperial Cocade” BLACK-WHITE-RED. Worn on the right side of the helmet from 22 March 1897 on.
On all Offz Kokarden: SILVER replaces WHITE and GOLD replaces YELLOW.
1867:
The colours of the Land Kokarde of the States are the following:
-Preussen: BLACK-WHITE-BLACK
-Bayern: WHITE-LIGHT BLUE-WHITE
-Saxony: WHITE-GREEN-WHITE
-Württemberg: BLACK-RED-BLACK
-Baden: YELLOW-RED-YELLOW
-Hessen-Darmstadt: WHITE-RED-WHITE-RED-WHITE
-Mecklemburg-Schwerin and Strelitz: BLUE-YELLOW-RED
-Oldenburg: BLUE-RED-BLUE
-Sachsen/Saxony-Weimar: YELLOW-GREEN-BLACK
-Braunschweig: BLUE-YELLOW-BLUE
-Anhalt: GREEN
-The three Herzogtümer (Duchies) of Sachsen (Saxony): GREEN-WHITE-GREEN
-Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt: DARK BLUE-WHITE-DARK BLUE
-Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen: WHITE-DARK BLUE-WHITE
-Reuss: YELLOW-RED-BLACK
-Schaumburg-Lippe: WHITE-RED-BLUE
-Lippe-kokarde Detmoldt: RED with a yellow outer ring
-Waldeck: YELLOW-RED-BLACK
-Hamburg; Bremen; Lübeck: WHITE with a RED-eightpointed-Maltese cross
1897:
Three Land Kokarden are to change:
-Sachsen-Weimar: from then on, GREEN-YELLOW-BLACK
-Bremen: WHITE-RED-WHITE: from then on, WITHOUT CROSS
-Hamburg: the simplified Maltese Cross (no longer eightpointed!): shaped as the Prussian Iron Cross.
In general: until 1897 a single Kokarde was worn on the right side; at the fixationpoint of the chinstraphalf. Or: on the front of the Tschako “the Feldzeichen”. Until 1897: the main Confederate States only wore their Land Kokarde.
This was not the case for certain small states that were annexed by Prussia. In addition to their own Land Kokarde they wore the Prussian Land Kokarde. Until 1897-a whole series of quirks existed:
-Oldenburg: The Offz only wore Pr Kokarde on the right side. The Mannsch wore the Kokarde of Oldenburg on the left hand side and the Prussian one on the right side.
-Anhalt; Saxony-Weimar; the three Duchies of Saxony; Reuss and Schwarzburg:
* Offz: Pr Kokarde: right side-Land Kokarde: left side.
* Mannsch: only the Land Kokarde: right hand side.
In general: each soldier serving in a unit-strange- to his homeland-wore TWO Kokarden: right side: the one of the unit in which he served. Left side: the one of his homeland!
This system resulted in an infinite variety of combinations concerning the wearing of Kokarden …
On the Tschako's; the Pelzmützen and Ulanen Tschapki the Feldzeichen had the colours of the "Land" to which the unit belonged. The Kokarde-in the colours of the wearers homeland- was worn at the right.

Another oddity with Braunschweig:
-up to 1866 the troops of this State wore their own Land Kokarde (Tschako: the Feldzeichen from 1872 on).
-From 1886 on: on the Pickelhaube: Pr Kokarde: right side; Kokarde of the soldiers “country of origin”: on the left.
22 March 1897: from this date on all these particularities disappeared: with the introduction of the Reichs-kokarde: for the entire German army. This Reichs Kokarde had to be worn at the right side, on the sidepost of the chinstrap half. The UNITS Land Kokarde was worn at the left side; NO LONGER the one of the soldiers country of orgin !

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by poniatowski » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Great thread folks!

Having seen all sorts of uniform mix-ups during service, it's easy to imagine a soldier placing the cockades on the wrong side after cleaning the helmet or otherwise removing the chin strap. Unfortunately, he didn't have somebody inspect him before his photo! :)

:D Ron
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:31 am

I thought I would just point out if you missed it that Philippe has an extremely rare Landwehr cross on his helmet. You don't see a lot of these. :salute:
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by argonne » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:13 pm

joerookery wrote:I thought I would just point out if you missed it that Philippe has an extremely rare Landwehr cross on his helmet. You don't see a lot of these. :salute:

Thank you Joe! :oops:

And this is a pict of the back, as you can see, no solder :wink:

Image

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by Spiker » Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:44 am

on the Saxon cockade topic ;these are original to the helmet, they make an exact mark on the leather.

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by SkipperJohn » Tue May 17, 2016 9:17 pm

I have read this thread several times, both before and after I joined the forum, and I have gotten quite an education. I still; however, haven't come up with an answer to my dilemma. About ten years ago I bought a private purchase Saxon Pioneer helmet. It only had one Kokarde, the Saxon one, and it was an officer type. Initially I thought it might be a Fahnrich, but then decided that it must be enlisted with an incorrect Kokarde. The Kokarde has put a ghost on the helmet shell so it has been there for a while. This Kokarde is different than any pictured above because it is manufactured to fit an M91 lug.

ImageImageImage

I looked for a national Kokarde to match, but never found one. I then wondered if a Fahnrich would use this type of chinscale rather than a rosette. The Kokarde only fits the outer part of the M91 post and does not go over the step. Also the Kokarde shows no signs of being machined or altered from it's original state.

ImageImage

Assuming that this is an enlisted helmet, and I need enlisted Kokarden to complete it, I began the search. Now I am wondering what type I need, serrated, non-serrated, lime green, forest green, large, small --- I'm so confused.

Ultimately I left the helmet alone.

ImageImage[/URL]Image

I am open to opinions and suggestions on how to make this right.
John :-?

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by poniatowski » Wed May 18, 2016 4:47 pm

I might as well put this one on here. This is a Saxon Unteroffizier Schule M15.

Image

Image

Image

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed May 18, 2016 6:25 pm

poniatowski wrote:I might as well put this one on here. This is a Saxon Unteroffizier Schule M15.

:D Ron
And the confusion goes on --- and on --- and on???
John :?

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by b.loree » Sat May 28, 2016 8:36 am

There are many things in the "world of Haube" that can not be explained John. A couple of pics of Saxe officer kokarden taken from my recent artillery officer restoration:
Image

Image
These appear to be 5.5 cm in size as stated, in the 1912 officer regulations which Glenn gave us.
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by SkipperJohn » Sat May 28, 2016 5:49 pm

b.loree wrote:There are many things in the "world of Haube" that can not be explained John. A couple of pics of Saxe officer kokarden taken from my recent artillery officer restoration:


No statement has ever been made that was more true. The variations between manufacturers on Kokarden, Wappens, spikes, etc would fill volumes. In looking through my collection at enlisted Reichs Kokarden alone I find that some are flat, some are convex, some fade pink, some fade orange, and some don't fade at all. All are original. I guess that's why they call it a hobby.
I did read one statement in this forum a long time ago (can't find it now) that really put it together for me. I don't remember the exact quote, but it went something like this:
"If you are looking for "perfect", you are in the wrong hobby".

John

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jimturinetti
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by jimturinetti » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:24 pm

Hello Phillippe,
I am Jim Turinetti. I have authored a number of books on spiked helmets and related topics, one of which is my book on The Landwehr or Reserve Crosses. Your cross for the Hanseatic Cities is tied with the LWK for the See Battalions as the rarest cross that was used by the German Army. It is a real treat to be able to see one of these crosses. I do not have a good photo of this cross in my book and I would like to request your permission to copy it from the Pickelhaubes.com web site and use it in my book. (I self publish/print my books so it is relatively easy for me to update a book when I get new information.) I will be happy to give you credit under the photo. Please write to me at [email protected] with your answer. That is truly a rare item, congratulations. (It is the only LWK that I don't have in my collection.)
All the best,
Jim

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by joerookery » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:03 pm

I would give him pictures of the back also Philippe. Those holes seem to be rigorously opened and similar in shape. Often you see them very dissimilar.
VR/Joe
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poniatowski
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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by poniatowski » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:38 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:
poniatowski wrote:I might as well put this one on here. This is a Saxon Unteroffizier Schule M15.

:D Ron
And the confusion goes on --- and on --- and on???
John :?

?
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by SkipperJohn » Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:54 pm

I was simply replying as to which cockade my helmet needs. When you added your helmet, there was yet another option. Saxons are the most confusing to me.

John :?

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Re: The Saxon cockade

Post by poniatowski » Wed Oct 12, 2016 2:45 pm

SkipperJohn wrote:I was simply replying as to which cockade my helmet needs. When you added your helmet, there was yet another option. Saxons are the most confusing to me.

John :?
Yes, there seems to be a lot of variation, but Saxons, like Bavarians, Hamburg-ers, etc, were very independent from what I can see. Maybe I'm wrong.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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