Help Please Picklehaube ID

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Help Please Picklehaube ID

Post by Bob Jones » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:21 am

I have NCOs Pickllehaube posible 1891 model it has ; saxon eagle wrappen( 3holes in centre, and 4 lower down where insignia has been removed). With soldered loops through grommetted holes on the front of the helmet with leather wedges to hold it in place. Markings on rear peak IR32 RR Jr71 1905. Inside Rudolf Wiener(makers Stamp ?) Size? 56 1/2. It has Bayern Blue and white korkade & Reichs-Kokade on the other side. It has what seems to be a bullet graze along the top left hand side, but otherwise the helmet is in good condition with linning, leather chin stap etc.
(Could it be Thuningian Regiment, is Kokarde correct, is wrappen correct,if so what is missing insignia).
I would be gratfull for any help. Thanks Bob.

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Post by b.loree » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:13 am

It can not be Saxon Bob as they do not have an eagle helmet plate, instead they have a brass star burst with silver shield in the centre. There are no doubt pics of a Saxon helmet here on the forum so just do a search. An eagle helmet plate would indicate Prussian or one of the smaller Dutchies regiments. The number 56 1/2 is the size in cm. IR 32 and 71 are both Thuringisches Regiments which wore the typical brass Prussian Eagle helmet plate. RR71 would be the Reserve Regiment for the Regular Line Regt 71. So the helmet would have been first issued to IR32 and then recycled to the reserve regiment 71. So there is no explanation as to why there would be holes in the helmet plate. Can you post some pics of your helmet here on the forum?
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Post by Bob Jones » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:12 pm

Sorry it is a prussian eagle wrappen, does this correspond with the bayern kokarde. please let me know the best way of sending images. Bob

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Post by poniatowski » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:20 pm

Cockades are often mixed up on helmets and even mis-identified in reference books. You can post photos by loading them into something similar to photobucket and then copying the image code to the forum page. It's pretty easy, since PB loads from the desktop.

But... photos would be good!

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:42 pm

Bob- I just sent you a PM, if you want to email the photo's to me, I can post them for you

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:39 pm

Posting these for Bob!

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Post by Bob Jones » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:05 pm

Thanks James.
I may be putting this up for sale any idea of value?

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:57 pm

Ok looks like a M95 Prussian for Other ranks not NCO.

Front plate looks to be missing reserve cross.

Bavarian Kokarden should not be on this helmet, it is missing the Prussian Black/white Kokarden.

Good condition with some damage to the shell.

Bonus is the chinstrap which is often missing.

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Post by Lost Skeleton » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 pm

That's not a Preußen eagle. It has the Fuerst bandeau. Rare Bird!
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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:28 pm

Chas, Nice catch..missed that completly

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Post by Bob Jones » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:19 am

Hi I have sent James detailed images of wrappen Can any body let me know if it is correct for helmet , and what insignia has been removed.
Thanks Bob

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:40 am

close ups of Bob's wappen.

Image

Image
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Post by Lost Skeleton » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:03 am

Hi Bob:

Though there isn't a direct or logical correlation between the Fuerst plate and the helmet to which it is attached, it would be a simple thing to swap it for the correct line eagle with Koenig bandeau and save the former for a rainy day.

The regiments and battalions utilizing the Fuerst eagle were:

IR 92 Braunschweig
IR 93 Anhalt
IR 94 Sachsen-Weimar: Weimar; II. Eisenach; III. Jena
IR 95 Sachsen-Meiningen-Coburg-Gotha: Gotha; II. Hildburghausen; III. Coburg
IR 96 Thüringian: however, only II. Reuß; III. Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt

IRs 94, 95, 96 were Thüringisches; therefore, when you mentioned a "saxon eagle wappen" above, you weren't far from the truth.

I own examples of IR 94…

Image

… and IR 96 (Reuß)

Image

Image

The three holes in your plate are a stumper, as I have never encountered more than two. I see the center tail feather is also pierced. Would it be possible to view a macro of the eagle's breast feathers? The absence of sharp detail in the stamping is a concern.

Perhaps, one of our other members can run with the ball.
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Post by b.loree » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:28 am

Interesting wappen, like Chas I have never seen a 3 holer. Why put a hole in the motto bandeau for example?
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Post by Bob Jones » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:02 pm

Hi i have sent close up images of wrappen to James to post. The detail is very good, but on the breast of the eagle it is poor possibly worn, may have had loose emblem at some time, the reason for the third hole in bandeau may be an attempt to fix this ?.(the third hole in bandeau seems to be punched outward the lower two punched inward).The four holes lower down are all punched outward The one though the tail presents a mystery at present.

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:47 pm

some close ups

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Post by Lost Skeleton » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:22 pm

Thanks for the additional photos, Bob. The nature of the holes and wear is exactly as you described.

If only it could speak…
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Post by Adler » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:52 am

Maybe there has been a cross for Reserve on the tail feathers once?...

Adler

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Post by Bob Jones » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:02 am

Thank you all for the imput so far. Just wondered ANY BODY INTRESTRED IN BUYING HELMET AND WRAPPEN OPEN TO OFFERS.
Bob[/b]

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Post by 911car » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:45 am

I am not really surprised to see a "Fuerst" plate on this helmet since... I own exactly the same one. Not only the markings are identical but they are displayed in the same way: I.R 32 in fat characters in the upper left, LBRJR71 underneath in a rectangular frame. Even the date, below IR32, seems to be the same (1909). Mine bears a Sachsen-Weimar reserve plate. No scroll on the eagle and a large added reservist cross bearing the Fuerst motto (shown in a previous thread; I think Tony had noticed how unusually large this reserve cross is). Owing to the origin and condition of my helmet, there is absolutely no doubt that it is genuine and completely original. I would therefore assume that this one was also a Sachsen-Weimar reservist helmet, the eagle of which lost its center Wappen and reserve cross.
Bruno

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Post by 911car » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:08 am

Now, as pointed out by Lost Skeleton, there is no direct correlation between the Fuerst plate and these markings; although... "Fuerst regiments" contributed men to Landwehr/Reserve regiments 32 and 71 (all belonging to the XIth Armee Korps).

I have listed these contributions below (after Larcade):

- Reuss: JR96 (2nd Batl)
RJR32 (Ist Batl)
LJR71 (3rd Batl)
- Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha: JR95 (1st and 3rd Batls)
RJR71(1st Batl)
- Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach : JR94
LJR32 (3rd Batl)
- Schwarzburg-Sonderhausen: JR71 (1st Batl)
LJR71 (part)
- Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt: JR96 (3rd Batl)
RJR32 (1st Batl)
LJR71 (part of 3rd Batl)

This does not explain why a Sachsen-Weimar reservist helmet would bear both IR32 and LJR71 stamps though (and no JR94). Any hint from someone?...
Bruno

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Post by poniatowski » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:12 am

Adler wrote:Maybe there has been a cross for Reserve on the tail feathers once?...

Adler

Ditto.

:D :D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Post by poniatowski » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:16 am

My two cents as to how the holes were made (From my metal smithing experiences).

The bottom two on the breast have a burr on both the inside and outside. To my knowledge only a drill bit will do this. The top one looks as if it was done with a hand punch (for example, a brand name would be Pexto Punch, or the copies Micro-Mark sells), since it has a die mark as well as the flange or burr inside from the punch breaking the metal.

Does any of this really matter? I guess not... just something to add.

:D Ron.
I really do need to know more about this....

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Post by Bob Jones » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:57 pm

I would like to see photos of Brunos sachen-weimar helmet, very intresting any on the site if so where, or could Bruno post some.
Thanks Bob

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Post by joerookery » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:45 pm

Welcome to my endless trek! Which unit had which helmet plate. It is very easy to find references for the active units–they do not always make sense to me but you can be assured and reassured by several references. As explained in the handbook all of these guys were part of the Prussian army. There were some piece parts that were governed in part by the leaders of the states based on the original agreements with Prussia mostly made after the 1866 war. Two quick examples of things that did not work out right–or at least easy includes JR 32. JR 32 was based in the city of Meiningen. clearly a Thüringisches city but no special Wappen. the other great example is JR 31 which bears the title Thüringisches, but it was based on an old stationing.

RJR 71 had three different cities of formation. Two of them are Prussian and one of them was from the same city as JR 32. Which Wappen did they wear? Why does Bruno's have the same Wappen as JR 94 not JR 95??

There are two potential answers and neither of them satisfy. It could be that the Bizirkscommando was co-located and stocked helmets. That does not compute cleanly because there are these headquarters in every one of the formation cities. The other potential answer is that somehow JR 32 became responsible for the training of RJR 71 and provided helmets. This does not make sense but I do not have any training orders that dismiss this out of hand.

So that is a very long ramble about I don't know exactly who is on first base but in all cases some sort of specialty Wappen was certainly possible in this instance. :lol: :scratch: :scratch: :read2: :read2: :read2:

PS. Bob, if you have no objections I will use some of the pictures of your markings on our lists. Thank you.
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Post by Bob Jones » Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Joe you can use images thank you for your help
Bob

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Post by 911car » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:10 am

Even Joe's erudition falls short of providing a solution to the enigma... Thank you much for the comments and hypotheses anyway!
I cannot resume access to my Photobucket account. I am sure this helmet has been shown on the forum but in what thread?... At least the R32 stamp should be in Joe's catalog of markings.
Bruno

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Post by joerookery » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:26 pm

VR/Joe
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Post by Bob Jones » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:15 pm

Thanks Guys for your help, but the helmet needs to go for sale either a good home or project. ( At present helmet listed on this site for sale Best Offers)
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Post by Bob Jones » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:48 pm

Thanks guys for your info, the helmet has now gone to France.

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Re: Help Please Picklehaube ID

Post by stephane_avesnes » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:29 pm

hi,

I think I have the answer .... :-k

- I R.32 does not mean JR32 but 1st Bataillon RJR32, you know sometimes reserve regiment are marked just like that : R32 instead of the full mark RJR32 ..... and IB RJR32 is Reuss (at least for 2 of the 3 companies of that bataillon)

AND YOU KNOW WHAT 8-) ?

- IB RJR 71 is also probably Reuss, even if that's no 100% clear from the documentation, we have some infos coming for instance from personal tags, which show that soldiers incorporated in the IB RJR71 were from Reuss,

now, this would mean that the helmet was attributed to a first then a second reserve regiment, that is not very common but it's possible,

it would be interesting to know when the RJR71 was created, if that's between 1900 and 1914, we could have the answer

this would explain why the helmet bears a Fur Fuerst plate,

hope this helps

Steve
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Re: Help Please Picklehaube ID

Post by Glennj » Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:55 pm

Steve,

RIR 71 was formed on 2 August 1914.

I./RIR 71 was formed in Meiningen by IR 32.

Regards
Glenn

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Re: Help Please Picklehaube ID

Post by stephane_avesnes » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:05 pm

Thanks a lot but I suppose you are talking about the mobilization of this reserve unit ...

My question was : when was this reserve unit created in the chart of the German imperial army ?

You understand what I mean : you first create a reserve unit on the paper and you make it real the day of the mobilization....

When I say that you create it on paper . That's not totally true ! You need to create the storage for all the equipment and weaponry needed

Thanks again for your help :)
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Re: Help Please Picklehaube ID

Post by stephane_avesnes » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:27 pm

Just checked the division to which belonged the RJR71 at the mobilization :
- reserve division 22
- reserve infantry brigade 43 with RJR 71 and 94
- reserve infantry brigade 44 with RJR32 and RJR82

So RJR32 and RJR71 belonged to the same division

The 4 reserve infantry regiments were formed from small states contingents :
Reuss, Schwarburg, Saxe Coburg Gotha, Saxe Thuringen and Weimar Eisenach,

So .... Could be Reuss !
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