German Colonial M1889 Sword?

[RON]

Hello everyone,
I haven’t posted for a while but this doesn’t mean the passion for collecting German militaria is gone!
A friend is asking me for information on what looks like a German M1889 Colonial sword but isn’t it too “clean” to be authentic? Refurbished maybe?

 

[southsando]

Sorry, but I have only ever seen one colonial sword in person and it was a model 89. I will say that it was definitely tarnished to where you probably could not easily have cleaned it up this well.

 

[John Josef]

Can I ask what that white stuff is? Is it some sort of glue?

 

[ussguppy]

Can I ask what that white stuff is? Is it some sort of glue?

It’s just a felt bumper for when it’s put in the scabbard.

 

[ussguppy]

Hello everyone,
I haven’t posted for a while but this doesn’t mean the passion for collecting German militaria is gone!
A friend is asking me for information on what looks like a German M1889 Colonial sword but isn’t it too “clean” to be authentic? Refurbished maybe?View attachment 55561

Can you post a picture of the blade? It should have double fuller and is probably nickel plated. Also, I don’t see a finger loop which should be just under the top of the hand guard.

Initially, it looks fine, officer model. The crown is nice and the scabbard looks to be the earlier 2 ring design.

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Agree with above, I think it looks good, would need to see blade etc.

James

 

[John Josef]

It’s just a felt bumper for when it’s put in the scabbard.

I believe your right; I had to blow up the picture to see the texture of the felt. At first look it looked something totally different.

 

[Stirnpanzer]

Looks ok to me... typical colonial officers sword, Alcosa logo on blade ?

I have one with a blue / gold etched blade , post imperial era , probably for reunion's etc...

Swords : https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/colonial-officer-sword.17644/

 

[RON]

Hello gents. Hello James. Thanks for promptly coming to my rescue. That’s what i always loved about this forum!
Double fuller, yes. But no markings whatsoever and no leather finger loop. And only 1 hanging loop on the nickel scabbard instead of the usual pre-1910 models.
What do you think? Genuine private purchase pre-WW1 officer’s type?

 

[RON]

The problem is i mostly have videos so I’m taking stills from these.

 

[ussguppy]

It’s a beautiful sword and very much original. It is an officer model as you can tell because it has a 3 wire wrapping (NCO models typically have 1 or 2 wire wrapping). An officer would have purchased it themselves, but it is still regulation. It is really common to find these unmarked, so no concerns there.

The scabbard being nickel plated could indicate an earlier model, or it being for a more senior officer. I don’t remember the year off the top of my head, but they changed the regulation hanger style to require only one loop on the scabbard.

The voided crown is really nice. Later, I’ll post mine which had the cheaper/simpler version. Overall a good find and very valuable.

 

[RON]

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

All Good!

 

[ussguppy]

Here are a few photos of the version I have. Mine is different because it is a 1913 model with some slight changes. You will notice that the eagle on mine faces left and yours faces right (including all the other Prussian swords). Mine also has the German Imperial Crown instead of the Prussian Crown on the monogram.

 

[RON]

Beautiful sword! I would swap “mine” with yours anytime! Love the blackened scabbard (as per the 1910 regulations if I’m not wrong) and most of all the imperial monogram… which got me wondering now, why would they put a the regular Prussian monogram on the handle of a sword which is technically imperial?? Another thing: I’m being told the imperial crown at the tip of the handle is removable? Unlike yours which seems to be fixed onto the handle? Does my sword still qualify as an authentic pre-WW1 colonial type?

 

[ussguppy]

Beautiful sword! I would swap “mine” with yours anytime! Love the blackened scabbard (as per the 1910 regulations if I’m not wrong) and most of all the imperial monogram… which got me wondering now, why would they put a the regular Prussian monogram on the handle of a sword which is technically imperial?? Another thing: I’m being told the imperial crown at the tip of the handle is removable? Unlike yours which seems to be fixed onto the handle? Does my sword still qualify as an authentic pre-WW1 colonial type?

Hi Ron,

Yes, if I had to take an approximate guess, I would say yours is probably around 1910. As far as the monogram, it depends. The colonial troops did their own thing a lot of the time, but since Prussia was the lead Germanic state, it would make sense to use the Prussian Crown. Once they focused on more overt imperial aspirations, they changed the regs the Imperial Crown. The caps are removeable, but I really don't recommend removing them.

I have attached 2 pictures so you can see what the swords look like without the caps. everything is stacked on that cap, so with it gone, the handle will fall off the blade. Again, I highly discourage anyone from removing the caps as it is easy to damage the threads and is not good for the parts.

In short, yes, yours is an authentic pre WW1 Schutztruppe Colonial Type used in the African colonies (the Asian colonies had a plain cap without a crown).

Gabe

 

[RON]

Hello Gabe,
Thanks for the very nice closeups. Beautiful swords you got there!
If i recall correctly, the 1 ring regulation (instead of 2) was introduced in 1906 and in 1910 forward, the scabbards had to be painted black. Which places the production of my sword between 1906 and 1910.
And speaking of my sword, it finally made it into my young collection of swords so i will take better closeups soon. I will post hereafter a few quick shots next to an 1892-made M1889 with a foldable hand guard, a post-1910 scabbard and what looks like a Jäger horn underneath the Prussian monogram…
Back to my colonial sword. It was jiggling and the crown was loose so i dismantled it and noticed that everything is indeed connected to that top cap so i screwed it carefully and tightly back in place.
The Colonial sword blade is 81 cm long (32”) while its Prussian counterpart is 73 cm long (less than 29”). The handle on the Colonial is made of some sort of skin or leather (shark?) with a 3-wire wrap while the Prussian handle is made of bakelite (if I’m not wrong) with a single wire wrap.
There are no markings (or etching) whatsoever except for a “92” engraved on the Prussian which I’m assuming is the production date?
Last but not least, my Colonial sword hand-guard connects to the handle with some sort of hook that goes into a slit in the shark skin but is a bit lower than all the other M1889 models i’ve seen (my Prussian example, your swords Gabe and all the good closeups i found on the Net). This got me thinking: coupled with the fact it’s in close to mint condition—super clean nickeled scabbard, blade and hand guard gilding—, could this be an indication that my sword is some sort of post era veteran reproduction?

 

[ussguppy]

Thanks for posting better photos. There are some aspects of what you are saying that makes sense. It’s hard to ascertain condition without holding it in my hand.

Know this though: a lot of collectors polish the brass, then put an epoxy or finish over the it to keep it shiny. That’s what my Asian Colonial one has.

As far as the blade and scabbard, I have a scabbard in perfect condition. Another has a perfect blade. They are nickel plated. If you take good care of them, then it will be extremely well preserved for a long time and stay minty. It’s not implausible to have something in good shape. The material under the wrapping is called shagreen, which is typically shark or ray skin. It looks typical to what many of my pieces have and doesn’t look new, although it does look good.

At the end of the day, it’s your comfortability with it that matters.

Side note: the sword with the jager horn is super cool. Nice little add on from whomever initially ordered it.

Gabe

 

[RON]

Thanks for posting better photos. There are some aspects of what you are saying that makes sense. It’s hard to ascertain condition without holding it in my hand.

Know this though: a lot of collectors polish the brass, then put an epoxy or finish over the it to keep it shiny. That’s what my Asian Colonial one has.

As far as the blade and scabbard, I have a scabbard in perfect condition. Another has a perfect blade. They are nickel plated. If you take good care of them, then it will be extremely well preserved for a long time and stay minty. It’s not implausible to have something in good shape. The material under the wrapping is called shagreen, which is typically shark or ray skin. It looks typical to what many of my pieces have and doesn’t look new, although it does look good.

At the end of the day, it’s your comfortability with it that matters.

Side note: the sword with the jager horn is super cool. Nice little add on from whomever initially ordered it.

Gabe

Thanks again Gabe.

Going back to what you mentioned earlier regarding the wire looping on the grip, does it mean my Prussian Jäger Sword wasn’t owned by an officer (single wire wrapping)? What about that 92 engraved by itself on its ricasso (see closeup hereafter)? Manufacture year maybe?

As for my East African Colonial Sword: Are blade dimensions (L= 32”, W= 0.79”) similar to yours or longer? Were there any regulations on this? I’m asking because my colonial sword is much longer than its Prussian counterpart but as long as my pre-WW1 Artillery lion head sword (ref. my 3 swords photographed together in photos above).
Lastly, have you seen anywhere a similar colonial sword with its guard hooking into the shagreen (thanks for the info on this btw!) this low under the brass pommel? I had posted closeups of this above.

 

[ussguppy]

Hi Ron,

Yes, typically, if you see one or two wire wrapping, it means that it was for an NCO. Either that, or it just fell off over the years...

I am unsure of the 92 stamp. I haven't seen where they mark the year made on any of my other swords. It could be plausible for it to be an inventory number from the quartermaster, but its just a guess. It is not in any of my books, so maybe ask around on that one.

Sword length is based off of the height of the wearer, even today. The width of the blade changes a lot per manufacturer, so variance is normal.

I have a sword with a similar handguard that falls lower into the handle like yours. Its not uncommon.

Gabe