Question about officers and Royal liners.

Just a quick question about a liner in an officer's helmet.

If you see an initial with a crown over it in an officer helmet, would it be safe to assume that it had belonged to a member of a Royal House?

I just can't think of any other explanation for the appearance of a crowned initial or cypher, but we are always learning, and I would like to hear what others think.

Thanks, in advance for your thoughts and comments. best regards John

John Josef said:

Just a quick question about a liner in an officer's helmet.

If you see an initial with a crown over it in an officer helmet, would it be safe to assume that it had belonged to a member of a Royal House?

I just can't think of any other explanation for the appearance of a crowned initial or cypher, but we are always learning, and I would like to hear what others think.

Thanks, in advance for your thoughts and comments. best regards John

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Hi John Josef,
My understanding is the type of crown or coronet would designate the persons status/nobility, as for example, a knight, a baron or a count, and of course a full crown to designate a member of the royal family.

In this example the crown has nine tines which designates a count. A baron would have 7 and a knight would have 5 tines, I believe.

So I think it’s probably better to think of it as a member of a “Nobel House” vs a “Royal House”.

Cheers,
Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the response it's very informative and helpful. If I could ask a few more questions, I would appreciate it.

When you say full crown does that mean the top being closed with maybe a cross at the top? Are there different closed crowns within the Royal House to show position?

Also is there any difference between having the design embroidered into the lining as opposed to something else being applied?

Would the color of the thread have any significance?

Thanks John Josef

Here is what I can add
photos of helmets and dress hats
that I either own now or have owned in the past
and 1 dress hat of Kaiser Wilhelm II that is owned by a collector friend of mine
1 Garde Regt zu Fuss worn by Prince August Wilhelm , son of the Kaiser .Still in my collection.
Dress hat 1 L K R 1 worn by Kaiser Wilhelm II . Still in my collection
Dress hat 1L H R 1 worn by Crown Prince Wilhelm my former collection
Dress hat See-Batl K W II my former collection

Last is the dress hat of Kaiser Wilhelm II of the 1 L H R 1
owned by a collector friend of mine
sorry , too much for the inside of the hat
Steve

Thanks, Steve, for the photo's mind-blowingly beautiful examples as always.

Does anyone know if there is any reference material that shows all the Royal Cyphers of all the members of the Imperial Royal families of Germany?

John Josef said:

Does anyone know if there is any reference material that shows all the Royal Cyphers of all the members of the Imperial Royal families of Germany?

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I am thinking that someone posted this on the site some time ago ?
How to find it ?
Steve

KAGGR#1 said:

I am thinking that someone posted this on the site some time ago ?
How to find it ?
Steve

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I just went and did a search of the forum and sadly only found a thread where a member asked about a possible reference back in 2009 with no luck

John Josef said:

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the response it's very informative and helpful. If I could ask a few more questions, I would appreciate it.

When you say full crown does that mean the top being closed with maybe a cross at the top? Are there different closed crowns within the Royal House to show position?

Also is there any difference between having the design embroidered into the lining as opposed to something else being applied?

Would the color of the thread have any significance?

Thanks John Josef

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I think the best example of the closed crown is the photo of Steve’s August Wilhelm helmet. The metal cyphers are sewn in to the silk liner but I don’t think the color of of thread is of any significance. I believe metal cyphers vs embroidered cyphers is just a design choice. And Steve’s photo examples of how cyphers are applied to dress hats are great. As far as different royal crowns indicating position in the family, I’m not sure.

I’ve never seen a reference book showing all Royal Cyphers of the royal families of Germany. That would be be quite a book!

Cheers,
Dennis

It seems some just used initials and others placed their initials over one another to create a cypher. Like on some shoulder boards.

I wonder what the significance of that may be.

I'm sure there are those who may know and have made a study of the Royal Houses of Germany but I doubt they collect Pickelhauben but you just never know.

This is a good overview

Every Member of a leading noble family was given an unique royal cipher based on their first name. Normal nobles certainly wanted to have similar cyphers, but there were very many nobles and therefore these cyphers were hardly unique. I don’t think that there was an official database for cyphers of every Knight or Count.

Thanks, guys for the information and the links.

After a bit more research I believe the Cypher that I have been researching belonged to Prince Alfons of Bavaria.

The condition is sadly very poor, but I believe it to be a perfect match. Your opinons are most welcome.

Hi,

I think you’re right.

You can compare it with this cypher:


In 2022 some the headgear of Prince Alfons was put on sale in Munich. It belonged to our late member Adler, who sadly passed away.

Kind regards,

GardeUlan

Looks like a match

JzPf said:

Looks like a match

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I really believe it is, looking closely all the points on the Cypher line up.

I almost fell out of the chair when I noticed this cypher in the liner. I may have discovered a truly one-of-a-kind Helmet that actually belonged to Prince Alfons which was found in an Attic in Munich and thought to be junk.

Time will tell

Late to the party, but I find this to be a handy reference to the crowns for crowned monograms (as opposed to unique cyphers for specific royals). I've seen a lot of these is various caps I have/had. It was probably pretty important when everyone around you was wearing the exact same outfit...

As mentioned somewhere above, the closed crowns were reserved for royalty, electors, grand dukes and the like.

Congratulations John Josef. It makes sense when you have found it in Munich. A great find
My only sabre is also from him

Jeff R said:

Late to the party, but I find this to be a handy reference to the crowns for crowned monograms (as opposed to unique cyphers for specific royals). I've seen a lot of these is various caps I have/had. It was probably pretty important when everyone around you was wearing the exact same outfit...

As mentioned somewhere above, the closed crowns were reserved for royalty, electors, grand dukes and the like.


View attachment 42756

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Thank you very much, that's a wonderful reference it's much appreciated.