Bavarian pickelhaube just purchased help with markings

C

ChrisR

New member
I have long been interested in WW1 and always hankered after a pickelhaube. My late father in law was from Munich (but in WW2) so when I saw a Bavarian one on eBay I could not resist.
I would be very grateful for any help with the providence of the PH. The metalwork is brass and it is supposedly a 1895 model. As you will see the inside leatherwork is very "distressed". The query items are
5 & 6 This has a date stamp of 1915 but I cannot make out the rest . Would this be a Regiment stamp or the makers?
7 AFAR I think, which google says is Artillerie Feld Abteilung Reserve. Is this correct please.
8 I can't make this out. Run?
9 This is difficult to read, could be Helymann. It looks like a stamp so is it likely to be a makers name rather than the soldier's.

I am a complete novice and my knowledge comes from you excellent guide for beginners. I would be very grateful for any advice or comments relating to the PH. I just hope I have not bought a dud!!😊
Many thanks
Chris (England)
 

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The regimental marking reads 4. F. A. R., which could be 4th Foot Artillery Regiment, which would have to have been raised after 1914 because Bavaria had only 2 Foot Artillery regiments in 1914. Or, it could be 4th Field Artillery Regiment.
 
I mistook the 4 for a broken A. That is very interesting re the two possible regiments. I don't suppose there is any way to find out which as I have no information relating to the actual soldier. But what you suggest is a fascinating piece of information . Many thanks
Chris
 
Hi Chris Congratulations and welcome to the forum.

The maker of your helmet was Hans Römer from Neu Ulm in Bavaria which is a well-known maker.

Welcome to the Pickelhauben Collectors Community just a little word of warning they can become ver addictive. ;)(y)

MFG John Josef
 
Thank you John Josef for your kind welcome and warning about addiction!

Very interesting that you could identify the maker. Which bit of my photos gives you the clue to the makers name ?

If is so pleasing that it ties back to Bavaria as my late father in law was a true Bavarian wearing some very old lederhosen all summer!
Regards
Chris
 
Thanks Coert that is great, I can see it now that I have a full name. In that case I wonder what the other two Names/words relate to on photo 8 & 9? Does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks all again very much
Chris
 
Thank you Ottodog for looking that up. With all your combined detective work I now know the maker and the Regiment-pretty impressive.
One extra query .
As you will see from the photo the interior leatherwork is fairly damaged with age. I assume it is best just to leave it as it is and not be tempted to consider some sort of renovation? I don't know if the quality of the internal leather work has an effect on the value of PHs. I bought it from someone who was not a specialist and who had acquired it in a house clearance! Two novices together!!
Chris
 
Well, to me a pickelhaube is only original once, later renovations, like another liner might spoil that.
But then again, maybe a member here has a good liner in his parts-bin. Some have lots of spare parts in their collections.

Regards, Coert.
 
I think you are right, as you say it is only original once! In any case I don't intend to sell it but intend it to be a family heirloom.
Thanks
Chris.
 
ottodog8 said:
The regimental marking reads 4. F. A. R., which could be 4th Foot Artillery Regiment, which would have to have been raised after 1914 because Bavaria had only 2 Foot Artillery regiments in 1914. Or, it could be 4th Field Artillery Regiment.
Click to expand...


This helmet is an M1886 (cross-shaped base with a fluted peak, angular visor, large front plate) modified to the M1896 (side post). In 1914–15, it must have been a Feld-Artillerie helmet – it is similar to the Chevauleger (mounted) helmet.
On the left is a Bavarian M1886/1916 F.A.R. helmet, still with its detachable peak, and on the right is a Bavarian M1886 F.A.R. helmet; the chin strap is incorrect – the scales should be domed, as this is a mounted artilleryman’s helmet. It hasn't been modified since 1896 because it doesn't have the side posts to secure the chin strap
Bay. Art.M86 & M16.jpg



After 1896, the Bavarian foot artillery (heavy, siege, positional, fortress artillery, etc.) had the same spiked helmet as the infantry in 1914, namely the M1896 (round base with smooth spike, round visor, small front plate).
Bay FsAR1 Z2 1350€.GIF



For your information, Bavaria did not adopt the shell for its artillery until after 31 March 1916, so on the grey-iron types.

Bay M86-15 Soissons21.jpg
 
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Welcome to the forum. Some information on the 4th Feld Artillery:
4 Feldartillery Regt. Koenig, established 1859 based at Augsburg and part of the 1st Army Korps. Their pre 1910 shoulder straps were red with yellow number 4 stitched on them. Germany was divided up into AK districts with each having arty, infantry, cavalry etc assigned to them.
 
b.loree, thank you for that fascinating information and the excellent supportive photos. I had not realised how extensive and complicated PH designs were e.g. the switch to the ball instead of a spike.
Many thanks again , it is so generous of the forum to share its knowledge.
Chris
 
The name seems to be Holzmann.

holzmann.jpg

On the left of this name, it seems to be Kan. (Kanonier) and then a letter? To be confirmed with maybe a better pict of the whole inside of front visor. There was a Kanonier Michael Holzmann in the KB FAR4, in the Leicht-Munition-Kolonne of the I. Abteilung, mobilized on the 4.3.16. That would match for a helmet made in the year 1915.

holzmann1.jpg

There was a second Holzmann in the KB FAR4, Josef, but he was a Fahrer (driver) not a Kanonier. And he has been mobilized on the 2.8.14 at the 6. Batterie. He could not have worn a 1915 helmet...

holzmann2.jpg

Philippe
 
Wow that is amazing. I've been trying AI . It had trouble scanning the image but came up with Wilh. Mehlmann! But this ignores the down stroke of one letter - which I imagine is the Z in Holzmann. I did some futher photos for ChatGPT but I have run out of free capacity today!
These close up photos are attached which hopefully you will find clearer. It is very exciting that you may be identifying the actual soldier whose PH it is.
Many thanks
Chris
 

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Philippe That is fantastic, who need AI when human experts are available! 😊 Would the unidentified letter be his first name initial perhaps?
I am not familiar with the Kriegsranglisten. Does the column with all the detailed writing document his deployment etc? If it is, it will be fascinating reading- I'll need to zoom in though the writing is so small!
Many thanks
Chris
 
Chris, yes, this letter could be the first name initial, but it is here definitly not a "M" for Michael. It could also stay for something else....But what?
I took the time to surch in the bavarian Kriegsstammrollen all the Holzmann who were in the KB FAR 4. I only could find those two guys....
Philippe
 
Hi Philippe, thank you for searching further in the records and establishing it must be Herr Holzmann. That is excellent detective work.

You note he was mobilised 4 March 1916 and I think Stahlhelms were first issued in Jan 1916. Is it likely that he would not have worn the PH in combat and only had it for Formal dress parades? That would be why he carefully put his name in it as it would have been left "back at base".
Is this a possible assumption and it would explain why it is in good condition , excluding the inner leather which rots with age?
Chris
 
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