5th Guard photo

K

Ken S.

New member
I picked up a couple of photos on eBay a short while ago that were supposedly from the estate of an officer who served with the 5GRzF; this one shows two officers in the foreground, one evidently not a member of the 5GRzF. Two names are written on the back, but they are not numbered, so I'm assuming that the upper name (Lt. v. Rohdem) is #1, meaning #2 would be Lt. Graf v. Rothenburg.



garde5_1.jpg
 
Hi Ken:
Great pic! Can you imagine having either one of those uniforms in a collection?? Since you have names it is possible to find out some info on these two. Both are members of the nobility with the v for "von" in front of their names. "Graf" means Duke in English. I do not own these "Rank Lists" but there are members that do so that they could provide additional info on these 2 men. I know for example that Randy Trawnik has these officer lists for the German Army that were published yearly. Randy is a member plus you can contact him at Age of Kings Militaria. Brian
 
Ken,

Friedrich Graf von Rothenburg served as an active Leutnant in the 5. G.R.z.F. A former Groß-Lichterfelde cadet (Untersekundaner) he entered the 5. G.R.z.F. as an Unteroffizier on the 12th of December 1914. He was commissioned on the 4th of September 1915 provisionally without a Patent of seniority with an eventual seniority of 22 March 1916. He survived the war.

The other chap is more likely a von Rohden.

Brian,

a Graf is a Count. A duke is an Herzog

Regards
Glenn
 
A former Groß-Lichterfelde cadet (Untersekundaner) he entered the 5. G.R.z.F. as an Unteroffizier on the 12th of December 1914. He was commissioned on the 4th of September 1915 provisionally without a Patent of seniority
Click to expand...

So Glenn how did he come by a commission? He dropped out of Lichterfeld and became an Unterofficer? Fahnrnträger? Some war time deal? Interesting.
 
Hi Joe,

it would appear he did leave Groß-Lichterfelde prior to normal graduation as he was the only individual gazetted on that day as leaving the Hauptkadetten-Anstalt.

He would have been accepted as an Unteroffizier (Offizier-Aspirant) and appointed a Fähnrich in due course.

Regards
Glenn
 
Both of these men appear to be wearing Garde tunics, just different models (simplified M10/15 and an M15 Bluse. Maybe the EKII could help identify which is which, but otherwise I am not sure how you could make a determination.

Chip
 
Glenn and Chip:
Again great posts. Glenn, what is your source of all this very specific information on one individual? Is all of this from the Rank lists? I have seen these books for sale on Ebay but I do not have one. Chip you seem to be well informed, we need all the expertise we can get here. Brian
 
Joe,

I used the term loosely in that when he was assigned to 5. G.R.z.F. he was an officer in being. The term Offizier-Aspirant was also used to describe those former pre war "One Year VOlunteers" of the reserve in Non commissioned rank and and those in training for a commission during the war.

Although the term Fahnenjunker had been introduced into the Prussian Army to replace the earlier designation of "Avantageur" on the 1st of January 1899, it seems in practice that this often only referred to private soldiers. Those with rank being invariably referred to by their rank. Aspirant officers in both the rank of privates (Fahnenjunker) or NCOs could be appointed as Fähnrich. See this extract from the Militär-Wochenblatt showing promotions to the rank of Fähnrich effective 22 September 1914. Graf von Rothenburg in his entry elsewhere is simply termed as Unteroffizier.

Brian,

the sad fact is, is that army lists alone are rather inadequate, especially for the Prussian Army in determing peoples' careers. The Prussian lists in the main do not give first names unless two individuals in the same unit in the same rank have the same surname (and even this was a development of around the turn of the century, before then the officers would have been listed as Müller I, Müller II etc!!) I use a variety of sources including the Militär-Wochenblatt, Officer "Stammlisten",
seniority lists and lierally dozens of army listsetc to try and determine who was who and what they did. With gaps in the collection it is not always possible!

Regards
Glenn

mwbsep14.jpg
 
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