Hello all. Ive come into this helmet and would like your opinions on how to proceed with restoring it. I will be using a very good metal smith to bring it back to life (the guy was a metal smith for tiffany actually). The question is, where to find the appropriate parts. Should i get a leather chin strap? Im assuming a scaled officer for this would be impossible to find. And the cockades? Are they the same as regular saxon pickelhauben or different? How about the liner? And looks like i need atleast one replacement domed stud. The neck skirt is lined with goat skin, but i haven't seen others with this. I have $0 into this helmet so i wouldn't mind spending a few bucks to do it right…unless you guys think its too big of a project.
Advice on Saxon Guard project helmet.
- Thread starter SMG
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ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Hello,
Congratulations on this excellent find!
I found one of these back in 2009 in similar condition. A family that lives about half an hour from me had it.
Unfortunately I sold it a couple of years later, along with 3 other enlisted pattern helmets, in order to help finance the purchase of a Guard du Corps Officer Helmet with Parade Eagle, which was also found in my state.
I have always regretted selling the Saxon helmet. The person who bought it from me sold it to someone else, and now I do not know who has it.
I do not see any dents in the helmet body that would need the use of your metal smith friend who worked for Tiffany. There is a small dent in the spike, which is definitely not detractive, at least not to myself.
My old helmet was similarly missing one of the M91 side posts.
Basically all that I see that needs to be done is the replacement of a domed rivet that would re-attach the wearer's right side of the back lobster tail visor, plus the repair of the one Model 1891 Side Post.
It can be argued either way as to whether or not you should polish/clean the Tombac metal body and the neusilber fittings on your helmet. If it were my helmet, I would likely simply leave it as it is, other than having your friend repair the missing domed rivet that is now missing, in order to hold the lobster tail rear visor back in proper place. It's also possible to have the one Model 1891 Side Post repaired/replaced that is presently damaged/incomplete on your otherwise fine helmet. I myself might consider finding a correct style, exact size original liner to place inside your helmet. But not having a liner in this helmet is not the end of the world. It will display nicely without anyone knowing the liner is missing, until the pick the helmet up to look inside.
Here is the link to comments posted about my former helmet from back in 2009. Unfortunately the forum was using outside hosting for photos posted here, and the former photographs are now lost on my posting because I had used the old "photobucket" to host my photographs. I can look amongst my old photos on CD-Rom here at home, in order to locate the original photos I posted of my former helmet. I should do this to properly restore the original thread posting.
The link to comments on my old helmet: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/a-suprise-early-christmas-present-to-restore.4675/
Best Wishes,
Alan
Congratulations on this excellent find!
I found one of these back in 2009 in similar condition. A family that lives about half an hour from me had it.
Unfortunately I sold it a couple of years later, along with 3 other enlisted pattern helmets, in order to help finance the purchase of a Guard du Corps Officer Helmet with Parade Eagle, which was also found in my state.
I have always regretted selling the Saxon helmet. The person who bought it from me sold it to someone else, and now I do not know who has it.
I do not see any dents in the helmet body that would need the use of your metal smith friend who worked for Tiffany. There is a small dent in the spike, which is definitely not detractive, at least not to myself.
My old helmet was similarly missing one of the M91 side posts.
Basically all that I see that needs to be done is the replacement of a domed rivet that would re-attach the wearer's right side of the back lobster tail visor, plus the repair of the one Model 1891 Side Post.
It can be argued either way as to whether or not you should polish/clean the Tombac metal body and the neusilber fittings on your helmet. If it were my helmet, I would likely simply leave it as it is, other than having your friend repair the missing domed rivet that is now missing, in order to hold the lobster tail rear visor back in proper place. It's also possible to have the one Model 1891 Side Post repaired/replaced that is presently damaged/incomplete on your otherwise fine helmet. I myself might consider finding a correct style, exact size original liner to place inside your helmet. But not having a liner in this helmet is not the end of the world. It will display nicely without anyone knowing the liner is missing, until the pick the helmet up to look inside.
Here is the link to comments posted about my former helmet from back in 2009. Unfortunately the forum was using outside hosting for photos posted here, and the former photographs are now lost on my posting because I had used the old "photobucket" to host my photographs. I can look amongst my old photos on CD-Rom here at home, in order to locate the original photos I posted of my former helmet. I should do this to properly restore the original thread posting.
The link to comments on my old helmet: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/a-suprise-early-christmas-present-to-restore.4675/
Best Wishes,
Alan
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ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Looks like your helmet is issue marked on the central area underside of the front visor trim. I can see a "G" or a "C", an "8", and a "II", Roman numeral, I believe. On the far right or left underside of the front visor trim, there may or may not be a marking such as "G. R." or "G. K." I can't see if it exists, due to the angle of the photograph.
I also see a size ?57-5? (size 57 1/2) marking inside the dome of the shell. Sometimes these helmet shells are marked "G. H. Osang, Dresden" with a date, near the vent hole inside the top of the helmet.
As a side note, if you ever should decide to sell your helmet, I would definitely be interested in making an offer on it to you.
Best Wishes,
Alan
I also see a size ?57-5? (size 57 1/2) marking inside the dome of the shell. Sometimes these helmet shells are marked "G. H. Osang, Dresden" with a date, near the vent hole inside the top of the helmet.
As a side note, if you ever should decide to sell your helmet, I would definitely be interested in making an offer on it to you.
Best Wishes,
Alan
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Pontiac9999
Active member
This would be an excellent project. Your best bet is to look around online at original helmets to get an idea of what you need.
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Take a close look at the 1-remaining complete Model 1891 Chinstrap Attachment Post. You'll notice that the "V" notch area is rounded shape on the tip of the "V", and it is unlike the infantry style leather pickelhaube M91 attachment posts. Your helmet will need this special Cavalry style of M91 Side Post to Restore the helmet properly.
It will be easier to find a set of tombac enlisted pattern Cavalry Chinscales for this helmet, as compared to a leather chinstrap that has the proper rounded "V" notch as would be used on this cavalry helmet.
Yes, you will need one replacement domed stud to replace the missing one that holds the one side of the rear lobster tail visor onto the helmet body.
A red-white-black National Colors Cockade is obtainable in the larger Kurassier helmet size, which you will need for this helmet. They show up for sale from time to time.
A Saxon colors large size Cockade for this Kurassier helmet will be a tall order to find. I've never seen one for sale on the loose. Never say never, as you may get lucky and find one to place on this helmet.
Best Wishes,
Alan
Easier Alan? Like it’s easier to find a unicorn than a flying pig?
Any chance of a new thread to show your GdC?
HatEnjoyer
Active member
As the others have said, this will make an excellent project, keep us posted!
Nacuaa
Active member
Good one... I've never seen a complete pair of original tombac scales for sale as such. Some years ago, A of K knew a retired restorer for the Les Invalides museum and he was able to produce a set for me. Then later I purchased a set of "brass" heavy cavalry chin scales on Ebay. When I cleaned them they turned out to be tombac. I nearly fell out of my chair. I cleaned and restored them and they are on my GduC helmet.
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Easier Alan? Like it’s easier to find a unicorn than a flying pig?
Any chance of a new thread to show your GdC?
That's funny Tony, thanks for the humor!
Am I correct to remember that the 8th JzP wore tombac fittings on their helmets, including tombac chinscales?
Before I sold my helmet in order to help finance the GdC purchase, I thought about the possibility of purchasing a complete, lesser quality 8th JzP helmet in a matching helmet size to what my Saxon helmet was, in order to acquire a set of Tombac chinscales to use for the Saxon helmet. Of course it would mean sacrificing the 8th JzP helmet in order to do so.
I've never, ever seen a proper leather Kurassier style leather chinstrap for sale. Thus my reasoning for saying it would be easier to find a Tombac set of chinscales by simply taking a pair of Tombac chinscales off from an 8th JzP helmet in order to complete a much rarer to find Saxon GR or GK helmet, and sacrifice a complete lesser quality condition 8th JzP helmet.
I posted the GdC helmet long ago. The chinscales are incorrect on the helmet, as they are not Tombac chinscales. Same goes for the kleeblaten, they are gilded brass and not Tombac. The photos are hard to see due to using the old "photobucket" hosting service. The link is found here:
https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/garde-du-corps-officer-helmet-to-parade.5148/
The GdC helmet supposedly was a WW2 bring back by a U.S. Veteran, from Des Moines, Iowa. I believe that the collector friend who purchased the GdC here in Iowa from the family, added the incorrect Chinscales and Kleeblaten to the helmet. A late collector friend from Des Moines had actually seen it and tried to buy it in the late 1970's, when the family answered a newspaper advertisement he had placed in search of military items to purchase. Unfortunately my late friend Bill was not able to purchase it from the family at that time. Another collector friend here in Iowa purchased it when the family brought it in to the Des Moines gun show and offered it to him for sale in the mid 1990's. He also eventually passed away, and I purchased the helmet from his widow.
Best Wishes,
Alan
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8.JzP wore a gilt eagle on black Metalhelm with Tombak fittings including chinscales. The Dragoner eagle wasn’t Tombak. More
Please excuse the shameless plug but I am looking for a JzP with silver fittings.
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Thanks Tony, I had forgotten about the eagle/wappen being in gilt, versus the rest of the helmet fittings being Tombac.
That's a gorgeous 8th JzP! Thanks for sharing it here.
One of the first helmets I ever got a lead on when I started collecting, was an incomplete 8th JzP helmet, brought home by a 5th Division U.S. Doughboy from WW1. The veteran's son had it sitting on a sideboard in their living room, right inside the front door. It was missing the eagle/wappen, one one side of the chinscale set, and the kokardes. I made a fair offer on it, and spooked the son of the vet with my offer because he didn't realize it was worth that much at the time. Because of this, I wasn't able to buy it. I stopped in a few times over the years to try to buy it from him, but he ended up giving it to his daughter, along with the WW1 uniform and a bugle, because his dad was a bugler. I need to follow up and see if the veteran's son's daughter still has it or not. I have one side of the tombac chinscale set for it, and a dragoon eagle/wappen for it.
Best Wishes,
Alan
Pontiac9999
Active member
Any chance we could see a closer and better lit picture of the area above the size marker inside between the two screws? I know there is paint on it but sometimes there is a maker mark stamped in. Usually these helmet were made by GH Osang. Just curious to know if yours is too?
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
Looks like I have previously pointed out that some of these Saxon helmets like this one may be found to be maker marked by G.H. Osang.
I recall that mine was not maker marked. I'm not certain that yours might not have a maker mark in it, like my former helmet. I've also seen examples maker marked by "C.E. Junker, Berlin".
I forgot to mention to look on the far right or left side of the underside of the front visor trim area. It is known that these Saxon helmets like this example can be found with the issue stamping in that location, with the possibility of a "G.R." or "G.K." marking and other numbers. Your helmet may or may not have such markings found in that area I mention to look.
The visor is stamped 55 and the tail is stamped 57 in the corners.
There are no marks easily readable inside the two posts for the spike base. But there is a ton of paint so it might be under there. During the restoration process i think the paint will need to be removed completely anyway and maybe we can see more.
Very helpful guidance! Im a third reich dealer so this helmet is totally out of my wheel house but its so cool really want to give it a new life and keep it for myself. If anyone has any leads on the aforementioned parts it would be most helpful even though i know some will be impossible. What should i do about the leather tail liner? Is it acceptable to replace with felt? I have a leather guy i used for scabbard restoration who could likeky cut me a piece of lamb skin or similar and send to the metal smith. It looks like the tail edge is crimped over the leather and the leather is glued in with maybe a shoe glue.
Hi,
If I were you I would polish the helmet, add the missing stud, possibly add the missing Knopf 91, and that would make a stunning display piece. These are small additions that hardly detract from the piece's originality. You can add (replica) scales and Kokarden to make it look more complete, as these can also be removed again.
Replacing the leather piece in the rear (which still looks ok in my eyes) however would be more intrusive, as you would need to uncrimp and recrimp the tail edge, and at least in my eyes would reduce the originality significantly.
As mentioned before, I don't think you need to add a liner either.
Just wanted to show my point of view, it's your helmet and imo you can do with it what you want, and enjoy it how you want to
Regards,
Lars
If I were you I would polish the helmet, add the missing stud, possibly add the missing Knopf 91, and that would make a stunning display piece. These are small additions that hardly detract from the piece's originality. You can add (replica) scales and Kokarden to make it look more complete, as these can also be removed again.
Replacing the leather piece in the rear (which still looks ok in my eyes) however would be more intrusive, as you would need to uncrimp and recrimp the tail edge, and at least in my eyes would reduce the originality significantly.
As mentioned before, I don't think you need to add a liner either.
Just wanted to show my point of view, it's your helmet and imo you can do with it what you want, and enjoy it how you want to
Regards,
Lars
Pontiac9999
Active member
You can probably actually find some original chinscale, they do come up ever so often. It's the large kurassier cockades that are very hard to find, especially in saxon colors.
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
I mentioned above, a possibility for how to find a set of Tombac chinscales. You may end up having to salvage a pair off a lesser quality 8th Jaeger zu Pferde lobster tail helmet from a same size helmet as yours. Or you might get lucky and find a loose pair for sale somewhere. Tombac sets rarely come up for sale, as compared to the regular much more common cavalry style brass ones we see from time to time.
I mentioned that finding a Saxon large size Kurassier type of Kokarde will be a tall order. I've never seen one for sale on the loose. Never. There's probably a hundred guys or more just like me looking constantly for one. However, never say never, as one may turn up some day.
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
I enlarged the original photo from post #1 of this thread, to show what is visible for the marking on the visor trim, and the size mark inside the dome of the helmet shell.
If it were my helmet (which it obviously is not), I would make certain Not to remove the black paint on the inside of the helmet, or the green paint. The green and black paint is original to the helmet. But you're the owner of the helmet, the choice is yours.
The black paint is actually only 1-layer thick. I can guarantee 99.9% That there will be No "G.H. Osang" Maker mark to be found if you remove the black paint. The black paint is not really very thick, and in all honesty it does not look like there was ever a maker mark in the top inside of your helmet, only a size marking which we can see is clearly marked "57-5" for 57 1/2 size. The paint is not thick enought to be hiding a "G.H. Osang" maker mark, in my humble opinion. It is not surprising to find one of these Saxon helmets with no maker mark.