joerookery
Well-known member
okay sports fans what does this one say? Looks like a slightly unusual Landsturm but I cannot read the lower left can you? Is it XIII?
another strange Uberzug
- Thread starter joerookery
- Start date
Very cool picture Joe! I vote for XIII
James
James
joerookery
Well-known member
Based on XIII, this one is quite unusual. This is a Landsturm soldier from Landsturm Infantry Regiment number 13. It had previously been 2nd Landsturm Infantry Ersatz Battalion Ulm. XIII14. Somehow when it was changed to an infantry regiment this Uberzug existed. it uses the unauthorized Landwehr "L" and the Landsturm unit identification.
I saw that -- really makes you wonder. Was it the photographer or was it the subject? Somebody got the background all wrong!
Wyliecoyote
New member
I guess I am the exception here Joe, to me, it looks like an " I ". I can see nothing that would go with this, could this be an example of a misuse by the Landsturm of proper identifiers. This was common with firearms & bayonets.
Checking out Jeff Noll's book, there seems to be nothing that would apply here, perhaps unless the person who was put in charge of stenciling the uberzugen was using the I for Infantrie ? Landsturm Btn. der Landwehr Infantrie Regiment ? Perhaps the L & I were stenciled on after they were assigned to a Landwehr Regiment? Just a wild guess ofcoarse.
Geo
Checking out Jeff Noll's book, there seems to be nothing that would apply here, perhaps unless the person who was put in charge of stenciling the uberzugen was using the I for Infantrie ? Landsturm Btn. der Landwehr Infantrie Regiment ? Perhaps the L & I were stenciled on after they were assigned to a Landwehr Regiment? Just a wild guess ofcoarse.
Geo
joerookery
Well-known member
George, I rejected that possibility because IV 26 was 8-Ldstr.-I-Ersatz-Btl IV A.K. formed up in September 1914. My understanding is that this Battalion never moved. XIII 26 did not become a Landwehr infantry Regiment by relatively rare Landsturm infantry Regiment. I keep trying to watch the bouncing ball! I wonder what Helmut Wappen this guy wore? Curiouser and curiouser...
Wyliecoyote
New member
What about :
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Perleberg (III. 26).
L.I.B.26
L - I III 26
Maybe the stencil maker they were using did not have the Normal itallicized L for Landsturm as was regulation, and or the fellow in charge of stencilling had had the duty of doing the btn. markings of the weapons also. Just conjecture either way you look at it.
Maybe, maybe, maybe?
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Perleberg (III. 26).
L.I.B.26
L - I III 26
Maybe the stencil maker they were using did not have the Normal itallicized L for Landsturm as was regulation, and or the fellow in charge of stencilling had had the duty of doing the btn. markings of the weapons also. Just conjecture either way you look at it.
Maybe, maybe, maybe?
joerookery
Well-known member
George I think your last idea is plausible. I don't think so as I am leading hard to XIII.
School me Chip! Divisional numbers?! The one that got me thinking that direction was the one on Tony's website that had the initials MD.
Corps numbers yes. But divisional numbers? Help me help me!
PS. My son who is home from college looked at the picture and informed me that this individual was a pimp. The value of a college education.
School me Chip! Divisional numbers?! The one that got me thinking that direction was the one on Tony's website that had the initials MD.
Corps numbers yes. But divisional numbers? Help me help me!
PS. My son who is home from college looked at the picture and informed me that this individual was a pimp. The value of a college education.
Chip Minx
New member
Joe,
I thought that comment would peak your interest. Yes, as I recall, helmet covers with arabic divisional numbers. I have the regulations somewhere. I got copies of the orders at the Bavarian Army Museum at Ingolstadt when I visited the library there back in 1978. I'm on vacation next week and I will have the time to dig through the files to find the orders.
Chip
I thought that comment would peak your interest. Yes, as I recall, helmet covers with arabic divisional numbers. I have the regulations somewhere. I got copies of the orders at the Bavarian Army Museum at Ingolstadt when I visited the library there back in 1978. I'm on vacation next week and I will have the time to dig through the files to find the orders.
Chip
Chip Minx
New member
Joe,
Ok, after some digging through my piles, I found the reference to divisional helmet cover numbers. It is to be found on Bavarian KME Nr.76859, dated August 20, 1915. The topic of the order is, "Abzeichen auf den Schulterklappen und Helmüberzügen der Munitionskolonnen und Trainformationen". My translation is, "For clarification, it has been determined that for infantry divisions that are not an established part of a corps or are only attached to such, the divisional infantry- and artillery- munitions columns, as well as the Train formations, will carry the divisional number on their shoulder straps. Likewise, their helmet covers receive the divisional numbers, which are to be attached as with the shoulder straps in arabic figures."
In addition, I have another regulation that gives the rules for the helmet cover numbers of all the units of the Bavarian mobile Ersatz formations.
Now, this does not help with the helmet cover in question, but it's enlightening just the same, nicht wahr?
Chip
Ok, after some digging through my piles, I found the reference to divisional helmet cover numbers. It is to be found on Bavarian KME Nr.76859, dated August 20, 1915. The topic of the order is, "Abzeichen auf den Schulterklappen und Helmüberzügen der Munitionskolonnen und Trainformationen". My translation is, "For clarification, it has been determined that for infantry divisions that are not an established part of a corps or are only attached to such, the divisional infantry- and artillery- munitions columns, as well as the Train formations, will carry the divisional number on their shoulder straps. Likewise, their helmet covers receive the divisional numbers, which are to be attached as with the shoulder straps in arabic figures."
In addition, I have another regulation that gives the rules for the helmet cover numbers of all the units of the Bavarian mobile Ersatz formations.
Now, this does not help with the helmet cover in question, but it's enlightening just the same, nicht wahr?
Chip
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
For me it makes no difference who is right in this discussion.
But I must say here: all your contributions to this topic are very interesting for me to read!
And of course the photographer used a painted background ( as usual for the period, I thought) of a summer landscape for a "pimp" in a winterfront outfit. I think your son is right, JoeRookery. From a simple human point of view the guy is showing off in his uniform as a proud peacock. In modern terms of the youngsters: "The man is pimpin' himself up!"
Thanks guys for sharing your knowledge!
Pierre
But I must say here: all your contributions to this topic are very interesting for me to read!
And of course the photographer used a painted background ( as usual for the period, I thought) of a summer landscape for a "pimp" in a winterfront outfit. I think your son is right, JoeRookery.
From a simple human point of view the guy is showing off in his uniform as a proud peacock. In modern terms of the youngsters: "The man is pimpin' himself up!" Thanks guys for sharing your knowledge!
Pierre
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
Perhaps I must add a more serious comment also to my remark. I meant the pre war period, where is seems to have been quite usual to visit a professional photo-studio in full ornate of your social position.
I thought it changed with the stalemate at the front in 1914, companies and regiment-units posed in the open air in concquered "enemy territory".
As an example of a studio posing picture to make my contribution a little bit more usefull, I scanned this picture for you. A German Feldpostkarte from Flanders on 11-06-1915 send by Landsturm soldier Johannes Bittner. I found this picture in the very interesting photobook in the Dutch language by the well informed Belgian writer Eddy Lambrecht: "Gruss aus Flandern!" about German Feldpostkarte send by the troops from Flanders.
In contradiction to my words this one is made in a Belgian photostudio, but most of the photo's of regimental units or persons are made in the open air mostly behind the lines.
I try to post another example from the book. A German Infantry Soldier in 1915, from the 178th regiment of the 123st division. Lambrechts writes the photograph might be made in 1915 in the open air near Wijtschate and the Bayernwald trenches.
If some of you are interested in the close ups of the helmet covers, I will gladly post these close ups also.
I do hope I contributed also in a constructive way to this topic.
Pierre
joerookery
Well-known member
No kidding! I am really confused now as you cannot tell from the picture of the Bavarian army whether it is regiment or division in certain cases. It gets more complex when we think about reserve regiments and reserve divisions.
So give us some examples of the ersatz numbers!
Pierre you add much to this discussion! Here is an example of a photographer in the field with a "brickwall" backdrop.
joerookery said:
Yes, but if the number IS in fact XIII then he could not be a Bavarian, right? My understanding is that only the Munitions-Kolonnen Überzug wore Roman Numerals by themselves. This fellow is at first glance Landwehr (L on the Überzug), but then why does he have a Landsturm type number like XIII 26 which is what you would see on the collars? I can't see a connection between this fellow and Munitions-Kolonnen, or Ersatz anything? Although he is over-dressed for the tropics...
On the photos, my understanding is that if they are wearing full marching order as they are in so many of these photos, that it was usually (not always as it could have been taken at home before shipping out) a portable studio in the rear areas. A tent or building with a foldable or cloth backdrop and a similar set-up for development. Must have been quite a business as you see tons of these for sale. T
joerookery
Well-known member
True!
I am positive that those munitions guys wore an Uberzug with just the corps numbers on it in Roman numerals and. However, I do not think it was exclusive. The Bavarian regulation that Chip quoted says that the munitions guys and all train personnel would wear the division number when not in a corps. This however is a Bavarian regulation. I have nothing similar for the Prussian army.
I don't know! The combination of the letter "L" and the Landsturm numbers are a new one on me. It is also interesting that the number XIII 26 represents a Landsturm regiment not a battalion.
Perhaps we were confusing but Chip simply added a bunch of Bavarian anomalies to the discussion. The photograph original in question shows a soldier that originally came from a Landsturm Ersatz battalion! Not much of a connection there.
I'm still twiddling my thumbs trying to figure out what the Arabic number on the collar dogs really represents.