Basic Questions

[joerookery]

I get a number of emails with questions and sometimes folks don't want to stick their toe into the forum because they think they might look foolish or cover old ground. So here is a thread to just whack away. People try very hard to not look "elitist" on this forum but to some folks asking for clarification on a tired old topic to an experienced collector might seem intimidating. It should not be.

I am not sure we need this kind of thread but I thought I would try it.

An email I got today hit home. I am always saying look at the back of the wappen. What EXACTLY am I looking for? Lack of dtail. Here is an example of what I mean on 2 private purchase plates.

This one though repaired shows clear detail. Feathers, and the edges are thin. This was stamped by 2 plates banging together. Detail on the front is as detailed on the back.

This wappen does not have the same crisp detail. Therefore I would find it suspect. Perhaps done by galvano. I have seen much worse.

Hope this helps.

 

[reservist1]

Joe: Aside from looking for repairs, one of the best reasons to check the back of a plate is to see if the front plate has been altered to fit a helmet other than that for which the plate was originally intended. The following image shows a plate where the mounting loops have been relocated to fit a helmet with different hole spacing.

 

[b.loree]

Joe, re the first picture which shows a re enforcement soldered to the back of sceptre. I have seen this once before on a mid war Prussian infantry officer helme (zinc fittings and card board helme). It looked to be an honest original attempt to provide extra support for the wappen. I do not remember any signs of breakage to the wappen which was a very crisp stamping that had lost all of its gilding. A small section of steel wire had been soldered to the back of the sceptre exactly like this. Brian

 

[Stu2067]

My Prussian Officer helm has this Reich cockade on it.
Isnt this the basic enlisted mans cockade?
Shouldnt I have as in the "Theirs" picture lower?

Stuart

 

[joerookery]

Stu Short answer yes. The world of cockades is a tough one. We have had several originality quizes that most all of us have failed. Officer cockades have a silver ring in a 2 piece cockade. Unterofficer mit portapee also have a silver ring in a 2 piece cockade. OR cockades have the white painted ring. Prussians used a 2 piece Reiche's cockade.

There are 3 key points about these prussian type 2 piece cockades.
1. Size. Officers cockades were 55mm. OR and Unterofficer mit Portapee were 48mm. While this picture compares one piece cockades you get the idea of size differences.

2. Holes. The picture above shows small holes for standard rosettes. Even officers eventually utilized a knopf 91 type rosette requiring a big hole.

3. Type of ring. There is no agreement on this issue. Notice the types of rings in the picture above. The smaller ones have a "single rim" and the larger ones have a double rim". While this is the more common method examples of both kinds exist.

I wrote an article on this at
http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/NCOCockade.htm

Great question Stu and I'm sure others will fill in my gaps. Your kind of question is why we have this thread!

 

[Stu2067]

This is my leftside, which in my opinion appears correct. So does this look like I should match this size and shape for the otherside? (not color)

And let me say YES, this just the post I was hoping for! Everyone here seems very enthusiastic to help others. Great Forum.

Stuart

 

[b.loree]

I use the flat blade screw driver bit from one of those drivers which has the multiple bits stored in the handle. There is no room for a regular style screw driver when you have your hand inside a helmet. I gently pry up the prongs so that I can then get a small curved nosed pliers around the base of the prongs right next to the leather shell. I then sqeeze the prongs closed and pull out the chin scale boss. I also anneal these prongs (heat them up with a blow torch) before I bend them back into place. You will have to clean the brass after this but the prongs will be as soft as they were when new. I do this annealing process with all the split brad fittings that were used on the pickelhauben. Brian

 

[Stu2067]

Thanks for the info Brian, but Im a bit short on the blow torch, flame-throwers or what not. Any slip with a screw-driver could be devastating, for sure. Im looking for the cockade to replace my current enlisted version firstly!

Appreciate Your Time

Stuart

 

[Stu2067]

The rear of my wappen appears to have small repairs to section above and below the "FR". The front is very difficult to see the indifferences. Any clues Gentlemen?

 

[joerookery]

Stu,

Any clues Gentlemen?

Lots of clues but little definative. This has the feel of holes for a landwehr cross. The inability to see it on the front might be due to the craftsmanship. There are many ways landwehr crosses were added. In my que of things to write on are examples. Here is a Baden.

Notice 4 holes were drilled, the landwehr cross added with prongs and no solder used.
Here is a real landwehr chicken with 2 holes. You can see the impression of the cross. No solder and MOST---MOST crosses had east west prongs. Some had 4 prongs and some north south.

Look at this Baden back. Solder, prongs and just bending.

OK but that is a line chicken. A Landwehr cross should not be on it. True but they frequently were.

Why???(From my web site)

Cross with Bandeaux. Incorrect but I have no doubt about this being original. I have seen about a dozen of these. This has a double motto. Why? I guess it was what they had. If you were an active OYV that went reserve I guess you could add a cross for 1 mark instead of refitting it for 15 marks.

Of course there could be other reasons this is a clue.

 

[Stu2067]

Thanks Joe once again,
So Im guessing your saying that my wappen was originally original then someone drilled holes for Landwehr, then someone later removed the Landwehr and repaired the holes???

Stuart

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

OK but that is a line chicken. A Landwehr cross should not be on it. True but they frequently were.
// Incorrect but I have no doubt about this being original.

Agree. Thought you may enjoy this Joe, now THIS is a great photo of a line chicken with Landwehr cross!

 

[zipperheads9]

Tony is that a Reserve cross? or Ladwher ? I thought I had this Steaight,sorry to bring this up again
Mark

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Tony is that a Reserve cross? or Ladwher ? I thought I had this Steaight

It's the terminology that is confusing. The Iron Cross itself with the motto, is called a Landwehr Cross.

For officer's, if it is on the chest, it is Landwehr, if it is on the tail, it is Reserve. For Men, the Landwehr Cross is on the chest of the chicken for both Landwehr and Reserves.

 

[joerookery]

now THIS is a great photo of a line chicken with Landwehr cross!

That is a GREAT photo! Look at how huge that cross is. Standard was 25mm. You see small ones at 15mm and large ones at 30mm. I think the guy in the photo is wearing one even larger! Thanks for posting this.

 

[joerookery]

So Im guessing your saying that my wappen was originally original then someone drilled holes for Landwehr, then someone later removed the Landwehr and repaired the holes???

Stu that is one possibility. It would not be right but "wrong stuff" was often done as Tony's picture clearly shows. There is a whole bunch of thoughts about use and misuse of these Prussian Chickens. I have added to the confusion Tony mentioned by writing an early article where I incorrectly called landwehr crosses reserve crosses. Sort of very wrong slang.
http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/ReserveCrosses.htm
The key piece of knowledge is that for officers there were 3 kinds of basic chickens. 1. Line 2. reserve 3. Landwehr.
Line eagles like yours had a bandeaux and an FR.

Reseve eagles just an FR. the bandeaux words were on the cross.

Landwehr Eagles had only the cross.

Now these "rules" were not followed religiously. We have MANY variations.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

The key piece of knowledge is that for officers there were 3 kinds of basic chickens. 1. Line 2. reserve 3. Landwehr.

I really should be cutting the lawn, but to add some photos to what Joe said......Line Eagle Wappen below with Bandeau and FR.

Reseve Eagle Wappen below with FR and Landwehr Cross on the tail.

Landwehr Eagle Wappen below with Landwehr Cross on the chest.

 

[Stu2067]

Thank You both, Joe And Tony for your information. I really appreciate your words and pictures.

NOW GO AND MOW THAT LAWN!

 

[dave mosher]

This posting also begs the question: If you have a prussian helmet plate with an additional bandeau which is intergal to the existing line bandeau, what happens to the bandeau if person is either reserve or landwehr? My presumption would be to leave it there and add the landwehr cross. I have not found any references that actual addresses this issue.

Dave

 

[dave mosher]

Conversely, I would presume that if additional bandeaus are NOT part of the line bandeau, the line bandeau would be dropped and the landwehr cross added.



Thoughts?....