BERLIN SCHUTZMANNSCHAFT? and questions...

M

morel5000

Member
Hallo All,

I recently obtain this pickelhaube, with a berlin schutzmannschaft wappen on the front. The haube is rather in bad shape. The shell is privately bought(?). The front plate looks original as it has as much detail on the back as on the front (one fixture is loose, so I can look at the back). The wappen is also printed in the leather of the helmet. The beampenspitze is broken at one place. Two prussian cockades are present; the one on the left measures 55 mm, the one on the right measures 48 mm. The shell has been ripped, but is repaired from the inside with leader and thread. It looks that it has been done when the shell was still in good shape. There are also double holes, which are professionally sealed with brass fittings.

My questions:
Is it possible for a schutzmannschaft pickelhaube that it is converted from a service pickelhaube?
Which cockade could be original; or which one should be replaced with the reichskokarde?
Does anyone has more information about civil pickelhauben?
Your thoughts at all?
Thanks in advance,
Michel


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Good Morning! I know very little about police helmets. There is a book by Erich Radecke which I think is the best guide I have seen. So I will give you my opinions based on experience I do not know for sure.

Is it possible for a schutzmannschaft pickelhaube that it is converted from a service pickelhaube?
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I don't think so for several reasons, but I think it is possible to do it the other way around. The vast majority of these helmets were certainly private purchase. However I'm sure there were some that were bought as a group. I think some of these police units reported in using their privately purchased individual helmet, regardless of wappen.
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This kind of spike is described as a schutzmannschaftsptze. A Beamte spike looks like this according to Radecke.
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Which cockade could be original; or which one should be replaced with the reichskokarde?
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There should only be a Prussian cockade on the right-hand side. These were officials of the state of Prussia, not of the empire. Size, I think was related to the rank of the individual.
 
Hi, this plate was used by "Schutzmannschaft" units in Berlin between 1898 and 1918. The extra bandeau was granted due to the 50. anniversary in 1898. On officer helmets (as here) it was fastened on the actual wappen plate.

The bandeau was by the way subject to some controversy between different units in the region. The King himself finally ascertained that only units that had belonged to the Berlin region in the year of the anniversary were allowed to bear the bandeau.
 
Thank you all for sharing the information. I ordered the book "Polizei-Abzeichen Helme - Heraldik - Historie". Band 1 bis 1918" from Radecke.

I am still puzzled about the double holes and the kokardes. Are the latter missing from James's helmet (and the second period photograph)? Or are they not obligatory?

Some other period photographs can be found here:

http://www.kukri.de/pk1.html

and

http://www.kukri.de/blankberlin.pdf

Greetings, Michel
 
Or are they not obligatory?
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I don't even think they were allowed. Prior to 1897, there was no such thing as a Reiche's cockade.
Most of the officials and civil servants or Beamte were not officials of the empire. Rather, they were officials of the state or Landes that they represented. Therefore they would only wear one cockade on the right side, which represented the Landes. This was the same for military helmets, prior to 1897. The double holes represented a change of wappen. This probably happened as the wappen for the police was changed.
 
The double holes are indeed strange, because the Berlin plate does not seem to have changed in size over time (as did the other Prussian police helmet plates). The only possibility that I can think of is the unusual case of an officer/Wachtmeister helmet beeing transferred to a lower Schutzmann rank.

There are basically three plates in the Berlin Schutzmannschaft. The Schutzmänner (lower ranks) had the plate of Michels helmet. The Wachtmeiser had the plate of James´ helmet and then there were the officers who had the same helmet plate but without the "IV" in the center. Actually I am not quite shure about the fastening of the bandeau on Michels Schutzmann helmet - its seems to be fastened ON the plate as on the officer variation rather than beeing pressed into the plate as it should be on the lower ranks. I lack a proper reference for that detail.
 
The last remarks of Robert made me thinking.. if the wappen has double holes, what if the spitze itself has also. So I removed the spike and four small holes (really small < 1 mm, more for split pens) 52 mm apart where present. Is this the approximate width for the pens of an army spike?

I will post photos later, the imprint of the schutzmann spike is really visible in the leather, it looks like it has been there a long time.

Is it a doctor job?
Or
Can it be a prussian army helmet converted for the Berlin schutzmannschaft?

Regards and thanks for your help,

Michel
 
I would not rule out that the helmet belonged to some lokal police (Kommunale Executivpolizei) of a surrounding town. When this was integrated into the Berlin administration region, the helmet wuld have been converted to the new plate of the Berlin police. If this happened before 1898, the unit nevertheless had the right to bear the bandeau.

:scratch:
 
Hi All,

back on this old post; I got the book from Radecke and he writes that the Reichscockarde was used after 1897 in Prussia for the Gendarmerie. For the Konichlige Schutzmanschaft it was regulated (to wear the cockade) for the officers only. For mannschaften it depended on the locallity. Hence such diversity in placement and precence of cockades.

This weekend I went to the Musée de l'armée in Bruxelles, and in the huge closet with pickelhauben there where also two Berlin Schutzmann helmets. Both had the Reichscockade. One had the Schutzmannspizte, the other an offiziersspitze (? I am not sure, it follows the description of Radecke). It also has the double holes as the one I have. For future reference I attached the photos.

(I will post the photos of the other discussion, the FAR 10 helmet later)

Best Regards, Michel

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I am not shure about that helmet, the spike does not seem correct to me and the rear spine has a ventilation which is unusual for police helmets too.

Concerning the double holes, maybe it did happen more commonly that the larger Beamten eagle of the Executive Polizei was changed into the "W"-plate of the Schutzmannschaft.
 
Hello,
[quotethe rear spine has a ventilation which is unusual for police helmets][/quote]

Some did have it, and were udsed by the Army after September 14.



A friend of mine founded one on battlefied.
I could show a photo of the Wappen.
 
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