BRITISH DRAGOON HELMET COLLECTION #8

[Steve Nick]

Hello Steve,

Absolutely, I am very interested in this photograph, so THANK YOU very much for sharing it! The image is fantastic in its clarity and detail. It seems fairly difficult to find images of officers in full dress to any of the Canadian dragoon regiments. Do you happen to know where the photograph was taken? I do have a number of images of British dragoon officers in full dress mostly Carte de Visite studio images. This image is just marvelous! I don't know if you have seen my post #2, but it showcases my three other Canadian dragoon helmets, and pictured below is my Princess Louie's Dragoon Guards helmet that is shown in that post. You should really consider posting pictures of Captain Holt's sword in a reply to this note, I would love to see it!

Again, thank you so very much for sharing this marvelous image!!

Cheers,

David

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David:

I figured you'd appreciate the photo. I love it when I can associate an item like this photo to an item in my collection. To me it gives some life to an otherwise inanimate object.

I'm a bit occupied with other distractions at the moment but by end of week I'll post some photos of the sword along with both scabbards.

Cheers:
Steve

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

Hi David.

I work as a contractor for the Canadian Army Simulation Centre. We provide provide Exercise Design, Development and Delivery (E3D) to both military and civilian organizations. Our main role is supporting the Canadian Army Command and Staff College. For this one we are supporting Joint Task Force North and the Yukon Government Emergency Management Organization. For this year the scenario will be an Ice Storm that leads to a while host of problems.

Thanks for this additional information. You really know your stuff and have a great collection.

Cheers.

Peter

Hello Peter,

How interesting! How often does your organization run simulations? are these exercises actual on the ground sort of live action exercises, computer driven simulations or a combination of all. It is an interesting contrast of government limitation or not of the use of regular military forces for internal domestic/civil use. In the United States, by-and-large the regular army, navy, air forces, and marines are prohibited by the 1878 "Posse Comitatus" law that restricts the role of and use of the military in domestic/civil action. States rely on their respective National Guards within their state boundaries. The only exception is the coast guard which does not fall under the Defense Department (except in time of declared war) it is under the administration of the Department of Homeland Security.

I am pleased that you appreciate the additional bit of historical information. For me, the history behind the helmets in my collection is hugely important, just as important as the helmets themselves, otherwise, I think then the helmets are just objects! I am a life-long learner so there is always something to learn about these helmets and their histories!

Cheers,

David

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

David:

I figured you'd appreciate the photo. I love it when I can associate an item like this photo to an item in my collection. To me it gives some life to an otherwise inanimate object.

I'm a bit occupied with other distractions at the moment but by end of week I'll post some photos of the sword along with both scabbards.

Cheers:
Steve

Hello Steve,

I couldn't agree more!! As I mentioned in my reply to Peter, above the history behind the "object" in my case the helmets in my collection is as immensely important as the helmets themselves and then to be able to add photographs of the original owner bring life back to, as you termed it, an inanimate object! I have several helmets that I can attribute to their specific original owners and in several instances with photographs of the owners.

I will look forward to seeing the pictures of Captain Holt's Princess Louise's Dragoon Guards regimental sword... I am sure the pictures will be absolutely fabulous! Thank you in advance for sharing them with me and the Forum.

Cheers,

David

 

[Peter B]

Hello Peter,

How interesting! How often does your organization run simulations? are these exercises actual on the ground sort of live action exercises, computer driven simulations or a combination of all. It is an interesting contrast of government limitation or not of the use of regular military forces for internal domestic/civil use. In the United States, by-and-large the regular army, navy, air forces, and marines are prohibited by the 1878 "Posse Comitatus" law that restricts the role of and use of the military in domestic/civil action. States rely on their respective National Guards within their state boundaries. The only exception is the coast guard which does not fall under the Defense Department (except in time of declared war) it is under the administration of the Department of Homeland Security.

I am pleased that you appreciate the additional bit of historical information. For me, the history behind the helmets in my collection is hugely important, just as important as the helmets themselves, otherwise, I think then the helmets are just objects! I am a life-long learner so there is always something to learn about these helmets and their histories!

Cheers,

David

The exercise I am working on right now is Operation Nanook-Tatigiit, which is a command post exercise without computer simulation.

There are no boots on the ground for this year's exercise so we stimulate the training audience with what we call injects. These are passed down to them from the Federal level (work for us as Higher Control) or up to them from the Municipal level (Lower Control). The Primary Training Audience this year is the Yukon Territorial (State equivalent) government. My controllers either use real members of various agencies to do the injects or call them in acting as one of the agencies. We also use Trusted Agents within the training audience to help us get a feel for tempo and sometimes to steer the training audience towards a desired outcome.

Our Forces luckily do not have the same restrictions on use of Regular or Reserve (Guard equivalent) to assist, but they are only assigned if the Territory does a "Request For Assistance" up to the Federal level to Public Safety Canada and it is deemed that military forces are appropriate. We (military) are still supposed to be the choice of last resort but more often than not are the first ones sent in.

We do run computer assisted exercises as well using various simulation software.

Cheers.

Peter

 

[Oldenburg]

Another excellent historical contribution that, for me as a German, uses this regiment to bring the connections between British colonial history and Canada closer!
Apart from that, this helmet is also a gem in their unique collection!

I`m already looking forward to the next lesson!

Best regards
Frank

 

[Steve Nick]

Hello Steve,

Absolutely, I am very interested in this photograph, so THANK YOU very much for sharing it! The image is fantastic in its clarity and detail. It seems fairly difficult to find images of officers in full dress to any of the Canadian dragoon regiments. Do you happen to know where the photograph was taken? I do have a number of images of British dragoon officers in full dress mostly Carte de Visite studio images. This image is just marvelous! I don't know if you have seen my post #2, but it showcases my three other Canadian dragoon helmets, and pictured below is my Princess Louie's Dragoon Guards helmet that is shown in that post. You should really consider posting pictures of Captain Holt's sword in a reply to this note, I would love to see it!

Again, thank you so very much for sharing this marvelous image!!

Cheers,

David

David:

In response to your question as to where the photo was taken, I don't know for certain but, my guess would be at the PLDG barracks in what was Hull, Quebec (now known as Gatineau, as Hull was considered too Anglais) . just across the river from Ottawa.

Steve

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

David:

In response to your question as to where the photo was taken, I don't know for certain but, my guess would be at the PLDG barracks in what was Hull, Quebec (now known as Gatineau, as Hull was considered too Anglais) . just across the river from Ottawa.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Super, thank you for that interesting bit of information regarding the image of Captain Holt...

Cheers,

David

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

Another excellent historical contribution that, for me as a German, uses this regiment to bring the connections between British colonial history and Canada closer!
Apart from that, this helmet is also a gem in their unique collection!

I`m already looking forward to the next lesson!

Best regards
Frank

Hello Frank!

Once again, very nice to hear from you! I am so pleased you are enjoying and finding my latest post of great interest and useful to you. Likewise, I honored that you are enjoying the helmets form my collection that I have posted here-to-now, this particular Canadian helmet is one that I have searched for a long time and was thrilled to find this one in extremely excellent condition! I will be posting another helmet out of my collection in the next week or two... I just need to decide which helmet to focus on and showcase next!

Again, that you for your very kind note, I always enjoy receiving them and for your, always very generous comments regarding the helmets in my collection, I do appreciate them!!

Very best regards,

David

 

[Steve Nick]

David:

As promised here are the photos of Capt. Holt's saber along with the parade scabbard.

Apologies for the quality of the pictures as I find swords difficult to photograph well. This isn't my area of expertise however I'm curious about the serial number on the blade. Is this a number issued by Wilkinson as opposed to a government issue number?

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

David:

As promised here are the photos of Capt. Holt's saber along with the parade scabbard.

Apologies for the quality of the pictures as I find swords difficult to photograph well. This isn't my area of expertise however I'm curious about the serial number on the blade. Is this a number issued by Wilkinson as opposed to a government issue number?


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Hi Steve,

Thank you for sharing these marvelous images of Captain Holts' sword he carried as a member of Princess Louses' Dragoon Guards. You should be very proud to have it gifted to you and in your possession. It is spectacular to see, in such terrific condition... just gorgeous! So, yes Wilkinson serial numbered their blades... I am assuming the blade is marked Wilkinson as their blades were. Wilkinson keep sort of hit or miss records in terms of the amount of detail they maintained for each numbered blade. Unfortunately, Wilkinson Sword no longer has those records in the company's possession. There is gentleman in the United Kingdom, Richard Milner, who now has most of Wilkinson ledgers in his possession and runs a company/service "Arms Research", and for a small fee can provide you with what details might exist in the ledgers regarding and associated with your serial number. This is the link/web address to his service: http://www.armsresearch.co.uk/

Yours swords serial number, 51951 places it within the range of numbers for the period 1914 to 1917 (44401 - 54963).
Because of the demand for swords at that time the usual precise recording of the buyers details was often omitted from their records. Also, etched decorations so often found on their blades is usually absent and plain (but still high quality) blades are seen. The brass proofing disc inset into the ricasso denotes quality; round being their standard version and a hexagonal one indicates their highest quality. HW initials should be present on the disc.

Again, thank you for the pictures... you have a fabulous blade!

Cheers,

David

 

[Steve Nick]

David:

Thanks for the added information.

The blade is etched. There is a brass proofing disc in the ricasso and it is hexagonal with the initials H.W.

I also see the initials A.B.S.T. in a cartouche within the etching on the side of the blade that contains the proofing disc.

It's nice to know that the blade is even more special that I thought.

Cheers:

Steve

 

[Yeohelmetguy]

David:

As promised here are the photos of Capt. Holt's saber along with the parade scabbard.

Apologies for the quality of the pictures as I find swords difficult to photograph well. This isn't my area of expertise however I'm curious about the serial number on the blade. Is this a number issued by Wilkinson as opposed to a government issue number?


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David:

Thanks for the added information.

The blade is etched. There is a brass proofing disc in the ricasso and it is hexagonal with the initials H.W.

I also see the initials A.B.S.T. in a cartouche within the etching on the side of the blade that contains the proofing disc.

It's nice to know that the blade is even more special that I thought.

Cheers:

Steve

Hi Steve,

No problem, I am pleased to provide any and all information that might enhance the swords provenance. The additional initials on the blade are interesting... I can't attribute them to any other Canadian cavalry regiment... I am thinking perhaps a previous original owner of the sword, I was trying to figure out how old Captain Holt might have been in the circa 1936 photograph you have, versus when, based on the swords serial number estimating in was produced some time in 1916 if it was possible to for him to have been the original owner and in fact old enough to have been a commissioned officer in the PLDG. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, he is 35 years old in the photograph, that would mean he was born in 1900-01-time frame and 13 or 14 years old at the onset of the First World War and 15 or 16 years old when the sword was produced... perhaps it was given to him by an ex-officer upon his commissioning? Just speculating... but the 1914-17 Wilkinson ledger might be able to reveal who purchased the sword, their regiment, and exactly when. It is also interesting that if the sword was originally produced for a current serving officer in the Princess Louise's Dragoon Guards that the blade doesn't have The Princess Louise's monogram as displayed on the regiments helmet plate not included as part of the etching on the blade as is general practice in regimentally attributable swords in the British Army to have the regiments badge incorporated on the blade. As well, the 5th Princess Louise's Dragoon Guards was never mobilized for service during the First World War but instead was sending volunteers to help raise the 8th Canadian Mounted Rifles which was authorized for service on 8 October 1915 and arrived in the United Kingdom on 29 January 1916 with the Canadian Expeditionary Force.

Again, just some miscellaneous speculative ramblings...

Cheers,

David