Canvas Ersatz Authentic?

argonne

Well-known member
Thank you Lars, yes, of course! I changed my mistake ;)
Mix-up in my head with the feldgrau Friedensuniform which was decreed September 1915.

Philippe
;)
 

Eric B

Member
It is truly a nice looking helmet .
But ... the spike rivets look to be repro.
The split rivets under side are thin thin.
The color of the rivets matches the ball perfectly as well as the plate.
Maybe all of the furniture has been repainted
Here's a better picture of the rivets, however thin, they look untouched and the holes through the helmet aren't patched or oversized from larger rivets. IMG_20211117_091125.jpgOpinions may differ, but I think this helmet has never been apart.
 

Eric B

Member
Here's a better picture of the rivets, however thin, they look untouched and the holes through the helmet aren't patched or oversized from larger rivets. View attachment 18292Opinions may differ, but I think this helmet has never been apart.
Not my first time seeing the thin rivets, as I have some on some relic parts from a helmet that was dug up. Same size as these, so I think they're fine on this ersatz.Screenshot_20211114-113340_eBay.jpg
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Philippe the Versuchshelme is outstanding. A wonderful and rare find. But the photo is fascinating. That date 1906 is the date of the image? Then what are the uniforms? A Feldgrau prototype prior to the M07 Feldrock with coloured collar and cuffs? I have not seen anything like that before.
 

argonne

Well-known member
Not my first time seeing the thin rivets, as I have some on some relic parts from a helmet that was dug up. Same size as these, so I think they're fine on this ersatz.
I agree. I also already saw this pattern of thin rivets on indiscutable helmets. Mostly Ersatz helmets or late productions.

Philippe
;)
 

argonne

Well-known member
Philippe the Versuchshelme is outstanding. A wonderful and rare find. But the photo is fascinating. That date 1906 is the date of the image? Then what are the uniforms? A Feldgrau prototype prior to the M07 Feldrock with coloured collar and cuffs? I have not seen anything like that before.
Tony,
Yes, 1906 is the date of the pict. 1906 was a year of great experiments in the Imperial Army, in terms of uniforms. This pict is showing the 1906 Versuchsuniform that should equip the whole german army, and not only units who should serve in hot countries.
This Waffenrock ist the origin of the M15 Friedensrock. The ammo pouch will be adopted 1909. The helmet won´t have future, because to expensive to produce...
In the regimental story of the Infanterie-Lehr-Regiment (early Infanterie-Lehr-Bataillon), you find a few lines about this Versuchsuniform:


lehr6.jpglehr7.jpg
The Reglement 1906 intended to design a new uniform. The South-Afrika Burenkrieg and the war in East-Asia had shown the necessity to create a less visible uniform. It seems that a few uniform patterns were experimented, in a few different colors (grey-green and grey).
The wellknown feldgrau uniform was then adopted February 1907.

Philippe
;)
 

pickelhauben

Well-known member
I agree. I also already saw this pattern of thin rivets on indiscutable helmets. Mostly Ersatz helmets or late productions.

Philippe
;)
Well Guys,

The only time I have seen these thin rivets has been on an ORIGINAL OFF WURT IN BRASS
You do learn something every day !
 

Sandmann

Well-known member
Philippe the Versuchshelme is outstanding. A wonderful and rare find. But the photo is fascinating. That date 1906 is the date of the image? Then what are the uniforms? A Feldgrau prototype prior to the M07 Feldrock with coloured collar and cuffs? I have not seen anything like that before.
This photo is a photo from 1901. I think it shows Emperor Wilhelm II. in a field-gray uniform of the Uhlan-Regiment 15, also with colored cuffs and shiney applications.
(Source: Emperor Wilhelm II., in Uniform of Uhlan-Reg. No. 15 )
B8091839-988B-4DD1-B49F-4949F8BDE310.jpeg
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Philippe thank you. I ‘assumed’ there must have been trials of Versuchuniformen before the M07 but information has eluded me. To finally see an image and some documentation is really special. Thank you so much for that; it fills in a large gap of information. Tony
 

argonne

Well-known member
Philippe thank you. I ‘assumed’ there must have been trials of Versuchuniformen before the M07 but information has eluded me. To finally see an image and some documentation is really special. Thank you so much for that; it fills in a large gap of information. Tony
Tony, it´s always a real pleasure, trying to understand, search and sometimes finding a missing link ;)

Philippe
:giggle:
 

Lars13

Active member
Jürgen Kraus explains the development of the field-grey uniform summarily in "Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg", and more extensively in "Die feldgraue Uniformierung des deutschen Heeres 1907-1918". The Kaiser wanted to keep all the pomp & circumstance related to the blue uniform, i.e. only replace the blue cloth with field-grey (as we can see on that superb 1906 picture of KIR 145). In the end he could be persuaded that all those bright colours didn't help with the camouflage, and allowed the 1907 uniform as we know it to be introduced. The experience with the 1907 uniform led to a proposal for an improved uniform in the spring/summer of 1914, but the start of the war intervened, and only in 1915 could the proposed new uniform (Bluse) be introduced in a slightly altered form (the collar colour was changed to green for all arms). The grey pants were also part of the spring/summer 1914 proposal, and were already introduced in 1914.
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Thank you all. I have these references but did not see that. The image + that information closes the link. Fantastic! Greatest thanks.
 
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KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Tony ;
I keep looking
could that not be U R 13 before the eagle change ?
I know of no connection of K W II and U R 13
what was the date of the front plate change ??
Steve
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
UR 13 became Königs-Ulanen-Regt. (1. Hannoversches) Nr.13 on 24.1.1899 and received the new eagle Wappen with Bandeau. If the image above is from 1901, I think it rules out UR13.
 

cptbob

Active member
Tony ;
I keep looking
could that not be U R 13 before the eagle change ?
I know of no connection of K W II and U R 13
what was the date of the front plate change ??
Steve
I was thinking the same thing Steve. The piping, collar and cuffs are all white so I would think that rules out the 15UR that the source indicates (yellow facing). Maybe the 9th UR?
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
K W II had uniforms for Garde U R 1 ; 2 & 3
also a Bavarian Uhlan Regt and a Saxon Uhlan Regt
and K U R 13
I do not know of him to wear any line Uhlan regiment uniforms
Steve
 
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