chin scales

G

Gunnar

New member
Hallo! I have a question re: pickelhaube chin scales. Sorry if I do not use correct terminology, I am new to this field of collecting.

Most chin scales that I see (whether plain brass or gilt brass) have a small knob on one end and a hole on the other. When the leather strap with buckle that is behind the scales isn't being worn under the chin, the strap can be tucked behind the chin scales up on the visor, with the ends of the scales snapped together over the leather strap.

I recently saw chin scales on a pickelhaube though that did NOT have the knob and hole on the ends, which were plain. They were definitely antique. Instead, the leather strap was adjusted resting on the visor so that the buckle showed in a gap between the two ends of the scales. I can't post a photo because I saw this in a shop where taking photos was forbidden.

Is one of these methods for how the scales rest on the visor (snapped together or not) older than the other or were they contiguous in time?

My thanks!
 
Welcome Gunnar. The original model 1842 pickelhaube did not have the two locking end fittings on the chin scales. So what you saw may have been one of these. The model 1860 did have locking scales. I suggest that you visit The Kaiser’s Bunker website to try and research this antique store helmet. There is a model 1842 shown there.
 
You are welcome, the 1860 model is also shown. I highly recommend this site if you are interested in these pickelhaube helmets. Tony Schnurr who created it is a moderator and active member on our forum.
 
Hallo, I did visit Kaiser's Bunker and found it to be extremely informative and helpful. I love that such things are created by people who have a passion for their interest is. One need not be German to have an appreciation for WW1 German militaria of course but my background did help in my case. My father was Norwegian-German, born in Norway. He met my German mother in Potsdam, Germany while training and serving in the German army in the 1940's, and I was born there some years later. My father didn't speak much of his war time experiences but he did have a love for military music, pomp and pageantry and I got my love for these things from him. He had my grandfather's pickelhaube, which I remember from childhood, and would sometimes let me wear it briefly for fun before putting it back on his desk. I am happy to have found this website and would thank you again for directing me to Kaiser's Bunker, and thank Mr. Schnurr as well.
 
Hello Gunnar and welcome to the Forum :)
The dress-code of the Prussian Army was very concrete according the helmet parts. Concerning the chinscale I have found following rule as an example. It is from the dress-code of 1903 for enlisted men (page 95/96 - §39 LINK) (similar will exist for other years). As far as I know the eyelet/metal knob solution existed from the beginning, but at least since 1850… As the closing mechanism is already described in a book from 1851, named „Auszug aus den Verordnungen für die königl. preuß. Infanterie ..., Band 1“, on page 262.
  • The chin-scales was made out of flat scales out of brass or new silver, which were fastened with wire clips on a base of calf leather with a core of parchment leather.
  • The last scale of the right side had to have a small eyelet and the last of the left side a small metal knob.
  • The attachment of the chin-scale to the helmet had to be done by a M91-knob. Therefore the last scale of both sides had to have a width of 2,0cm, measured over the center of a hole of diameter 14,1mm for doing that. The thickness of these scales had to be 2mm.
  • The width at the lower end had to be 1,2cm, measured over the knob/eyelet.
  • On both sides of the chin-scale, a strap made of tough-leather (blackened on the scar side) had to be attached with wire clips onto the leather core. The strap on the right side had to be pointed and provided with holes. On the left side, the belts had to be double and provided with a pin buckle from the metal of the scale.
  • When hanging, the chin-scale should rest against the cheek and the last scale should end with the corner of the mouth. The scales must not reach under the chin.
  • The end of the leather strap had to survive at least 1cm over the buckle and then pushed under the last scale.
  • Worn above, the chin-scale had to rest firmly on the visor-seam.
 
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Thanks Sandy, I appreciate the information. It's amazing how one can write a book about this kind of helmet, so many details are involved. I was surprised to read on Kaiser Bunker (after being kindly directed there) that quality and expense in relation to pickelhauben wasn't limited to officers. Even a low ranking enlisted man could order features for hi if he could afford them.
 
Gunnar said:
Thanks Sandy, I appreciate the information. It's amazing how one can write a book about this kind of helmet, so many details are involved.
Click to expand...
Gunnar, the dresscode I have linked, is the original Prussian from 1903. The original name is „Bekleidungsordnung - Vorschrift für die Beschaffenheit und Unterscheidungszeichen der Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der Mannschaften aller Waffen…“ (Translation: Clothing regulations - regulation for the nature and distinctive signs of the clothing and equipment of the crews of all weapons…).
That means that all Prussian uniform parts had to be made according to these military guidelines.
 
Sandy I am confused. You say in post #6 that a book from 1851 states that "the last scale of the right side had to have a small eyelet and the last of the left side a small metal knob" before that was introduced in 1856? More confusing, the 1851 book foresaw the "M91-knob"?

40 years into the future?
 
Tony, that is a misunderstanding, I think. The questionion was, if there were chin scales without „eyelet/metal knob“ closing mechanism? For that reason I translated the regulations for enlisted men of the Prussian army from 1903, to show an example how exactly the prussian regulations were.

Further I have written that the fastening system with „eyelet/metal knob“ was also already described in a book from 1851. The book „Auszug aus den Verordnungen für die königl. preuß. Infanterie ..., Band 1“ was published in 1851, but it summarizes the regulations of the Prussian infantry up to July 1, 1850, with some additions as of September 1850. And on page 262 the closing mechanism „eyelet/metal knob“ is already mentioned, as it was written „Bei allen anderen Gelegenheiten werden sie (die Schuppenkette) über den vorderen Helmschirm gelegt und so kurz wie möglich geschnallt, oder mittels einer Hakenvorrichtung verkürzt.“ (Translation: For all other occasions, they (the chin scales) are placed over the front helmet-visor and strapped as short as possible, or shortened by means of a hook device.) This sentence is provided with the Footnote 2, which indicates that it was a rule of war ministry of 3 October 1848. For this reason, I mean that the mechanism "eyelet/metal knob" was already specified from the beginning, but at least since October 1848.
 
Sandy, are you possibly mistaking "Hakenvorrichtung" for the M1856 "eyelet/metal knob" system for securing the chincales?

The quote above states that it there was some form of 'hook device' available to keep the chinscales closer together for those 'other occasions' (such as parades etc.?) This implies that they did not secure together. Why else would there be a directive to have the chinscales pulled together "as short as possible"? Below is the standard open chinscales for an issued M1842 which do not hook together.

However, consider this: when I dig through present-day references, images of surviving examples officer's M1842 all seem to have the "eyelet/metal knob" to close them at the front. So does that indicate that this was a popular private purchase option?

Perhaps this effective feature was adopted for the issued soldiers helmet in AKO 26.6.1856?

Hopefully Glenn J. will swoop in with an AKO 23.10.1842 or an 1842 Bekleidungsordnung that clarifies.

dbh09g.jpg
 
Tony you are right. I think I was wrong with the introduction, but I still mean that with the "hook device" was the "eyelet/metal knob". Since it is, as you have written, often to be found on the old helmets, I assume that the mentioned note from the War Ministry of 1848 allowed it to wear as an additional option, but not introduced it.
 
As I confirmed, I also think Tony was right. In my opinion it was an option for all helmets and allowed just to clean up the regulations, because different solutions existed. But it was not finally introduced in 1848, which seems not to be done before 1856, as Tony stated, after the responsibles have decided that it looked best.
I have just found the original letter of the ministry of war, which was an AKO from 1848 in the (Source: „Militär-Wochenblatt Band 32“)
6156D58F-4A76-409C-8E7C-E5FD41AE8DCB.png
Translation:
Concerning the wearing of chin scales on headgear.
With the supreme permission of His Majesty the King, the following regulations shall come into force from now on concerning the wearing of chin scales on headgear.
1. The chin scales have to be worn under the chin: during parades, marches past and inspections, when the guard raises (by the officers and enlisted men in the line), in combat, during any service on horseback on all situations when the headgear must be protected from falling off or where the superior officer order it.
2.The chin scales are turned up everywhere where no. 1 is not affected, for example, on marches, during exercises, on guard and orderly duty, going to church, personal reports, etc.
3.On the helmets, the chin scales are raised in such a way that they are placed over the visor and strapped as short as possible, or shortened with a hook device.
4.For the other headgear of the cavalry, the chin scales are turned up in an analogous manner as far as possible.
 
Thank you Sandy.

Fascinating to learn these details isn't it? It makes me appreciate my older helmets even more more understanding what/when/why.
 
Thank you Gentlemen, you are welcome 🙏:)
It is fascinating Tony, and I love to read the original newspapers. It is the only way to explore the evolution of the Pickelhaube, which is not finally investigated because many of the archives burned down in ww2 and large gaps exist in these sources.
At the moment I try to find as much AKO‘s as possible, which have to do with the evolution of the Pickelhaube. So if somebody find one, please let me know 🙏
 
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