Dragoner No. 9 Helmets

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
I am posting here some pictures of 9th Dragoner helmets from the J. Turinetti collection. My thanks to Jim for the pictures of these beautiful examples and to Steve M. for his efforts in getting these posted.
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KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Thanks to Jim T. for these photos of these helmets in his collection .
We all know the D R 9 officers helmet was in gilt trim .A great reserve officer in gilt .
I understand there was an A K O that all Dragoon regiments were to go to a silver trim helmet.
I assume this info was / is correct but I do not know the date of that A K O .
Maybe some of you members out there might know that date ? Bruno ?
Next you see Jim's D R 9 in the silver trim . I have only seen one or two of these
silver D R 9 helmets .
The main thing that would confuse me is that all Dragoon regiments helmets went to
silver trim ; How could we tell a 1 Garde Dragoon from a 2 G D ??
I have also sent Brian 3 other photos of helmets of D R 2 in a German museum .
enlisted man
officer in gilt
officer in silver trim
I think that Brian will post these 3 photos when his time allows
and we will see at least 2 Dragoon regiments that started out with
gilt trim and then changed to silver .

If any members have or know of other silver trim Dragoon helmets
that changed from gilt , please let me know
Many thanks to Jim T.
Steve McFarland
 

911car

Well-known member
KAGGR#1 said:
Thanks to Jim T. for these photos of these helmets in his collection .
We all know the D R 9 officers helmet was in gilt trim .A great reserve officer in gilt .
I understand there was an A K O that all Dragoon regiments were to go to a silver trim helmet.
I assume this info was / is correct but I do not know the date of that A K O .
Maybe some of you members out there might know that date ? Bruno ?
Next you see Jim's D R 9 in the silver trim . I have only seen one or two of these
silver D R 9 helmets .
The main thing that would confuse me is that all Dragoon regiments helmets went to
silver trim ; How could we tell a 1 Garde Dragoon from a 2 G D ??
I have also sent Brian 3 other photos of helmets of D R 2 in a German museum .
enlisted man
officer in gilt
officer in silver trim
I think that Brian will post these 3 photos when his time allows
and we will see at least 2 Dragoon regiments that started out with
gilt trim and then changed to silver .

If any members have or know of other silver trim Dragoon helmets
that changed from gilt , please let me know
Many thanks to Jim T.
Steve McFarland

Steve, the AKO of September 21st, 1915 ruled that all Prussian Dragoner helmets should be in silver trim, EM and officers', at the exception of Garde Dragoner 1 that kept the yellow gilt.
Bruno
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Bruno ;
the AKO of September 21st, 1915 ruled that all Prussian Dragoner helmets should be in silver trim, EM and officers', at the exception of Garde Dragoner 1 that kept the yellow gilt.
Bruno

Many thanks
Great info
that answers my question about 1 G D R
If I am correct the only two that we could I D in silver would be D R 2 and D R 9
Was this for Prussian Dragoons only ?
What about D R 19 Oldenburg ?
Thanks
Steve
 

argonne

Well-known member
KAGGR#1 said:
What about D R 19 Oldenburg ?

Hi,

DR19 helmets (Oldenburg) always were only silver with gilt chinscales and gilt star between Oldenburg silver emblem and silver eagle (and gilt stars for officers).


Philippe
:wink:
 

911car

Well-known member
KAGGR#1 said:
Bruno ;
the AKO of September 21st, 1915 ruled that all Prussian Dragoner helmets should be in silver trim, EM and officers', at the exception of Garde Dragoner 1 that kept the yellow gilt.
Bruno

Many thanks
Great info
that answers my question about 1 G D R
If I am correct the only two that we could I D in silver would be D R 2 and D R 9
Was this for Prussian Dragoons only ?
What about D R 19 Oldenburg ?
Thanks
Steve

Hi Steve,
As you know, most Dragoner helmets from other states were already in silver fittings: Baden, Hessen, Oldenburg (as Philippe reminded us), Wurtemberg. The only exception was Mecklenburg, with DR17 in gold and DR18 in silver. As far as I know, this did not change in 1915...
Do you mean you have seen DR2 helmets in silver fittings? I don't think I have...
Bruno
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
911car said:
Steve, the AKO of September 21st, 1915 ruled that all Prussian Dragoner helmets should be in silver trim, EM and officers', at the exception of Garde Dragoner 1 that kept the yellow gilt.
Bruno

That's fantastic! I had no idea this change occurred :eek:
 

911car

Well-known member
Tony without Kaiser said:
911car said:
Steve, the AKO of September 21st, 1915 ruled that all Prussian Dragoner helmets should be in silver trim, EM and officers', at the exception of Garde Dragoner 1 that kept the yellow gilt.
Bruno

That's fantastic! I had no idea this change occurred :eek:

Tony, this is official history. How far was the rule actually enforced I don't know. In 1914, Prussia had 8 Dragoner regiments with helmets in gold colour trim. Imagine the cost of renewing all these, or even just refurbishing old ones. Was it tolerated to wear the old helmet under the Uberzug? In addition, the helmet with gray fittings, which we know as the M15 model, had been already adopted earlier (April) in 1915. Therefore the question was possibly not even relevant in most Dragoner regiments. Perhaps, then, this change from gold to silver applied essentially to officer helmets (of which Jim's examples should be a beautiful illustration). I have never seen a DR1 or DR2 officer helmet in white trim, which of course does not mean these do not exist...
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
911car said:
Tony, this is official history. How far was the rule actually enforced I don't know. In 1914, Prussia had 8 Dragoner regiments with helmets in gold colour trim. Imagine the cost of renewing all these, or even just refurbishing old ones. Was it tolerated to wear the old helmet under the Uberzug? In addition, the helmet with gray fittings, which we know as the M15 model, had been already adopted earlier (April) in 1915. Therefore the question was possibly not even relevant in most Dragoner regiments. Perhaps, then, this change from gold to silver applied essentially to officer helmets (of which Jim's examples should be a beautiful illustration). I have never seen a DR1 or DR2 officer helmet in white trim, which of course does not mean these do not exist...

Really interesting. The High Command must have been well aware of the failed 1897 experiment of the Grand-Duke of Hessen to convert the Regiment from brass to silver fittings to reflect the Regiment's Leibgarde status. As an economic measure, the brass fittings of IR115 helmets models 1891/1895 with brass fittings that were already in service, were chemically "whitened" to silver, so that they could be worn at the autumn maneuvers which the Kaiser would be attending. Unfortunately, the treatment process used to whiten the brass fittings was a complete failure as the fittings quickly became a dirty-grey color, and it was impossible to revive them, and they had be be stripped of fittings. Hesse had to procure all new Pickelhauben for IR115 with fittings made of German nickel-silver. An expensive experiment.

So if this AKO occurred in 1915, then it is plausible that all of the Dragoner Pickelhauben made for the Friedens-Uniform would have been made with silver fittings yes? I am by the Saint John River building a new house for my wife and myself, and my house in Fredericton is packed. So I have no references. What does it show in the colour plates in Caseberg, P. (1916) Deutschlands Armee in feldgrauer Kriegs-und Friedens-Uniform. PM Weber, Verlag, Berlin? Just curious, but I know someone reading this has it.

Prior to reading this thread, if I would have found a Line Dragoner Pickelhaube marked to regiments 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, or 14, with silver fittings, I would have had an aneurysm and been unable to explain it.....
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
Yet again, we have evidence of the value of this forum and its membership. :thumb up:
 

Sandmann

Well-known member
Does anybody know if a list of all AKO‘s is existing? I know that a lot of AKO‘s are listet in „Die Formations- und Uniformierungsgeschichte...“ from Paul Pietsch, but this book ends in 1914 and only the date of the AKO is listet, not the detailed text.
Is there a chance to find AKO’s like the mentioned one from Sept. 21st of 1915 in the Internet or could these informations be find in an archieve? I‘m not questioning the facts from Bruno but it would be very interesting for me to know more details about any AKO.
 

argonne

Well-known member
911car said:
Perhaps, then, this change from gold to silver applied essentially to officer helmets (of which Jim's examples should be a beautiful illustration).

I think you nail it!
As Larcade wrote in his Tome II (page 52) the AKO of the 21.9.15 was effectively run down by the previous "Verordnung" of the 6.4.15 that ruled the utilisation of steel fittings on those Dragoner helmets (painted grey or chemically darkened). Maybe some "Proben" from the War Ministery are still existing, showing such EM Dragoner helmet with german silver fittings, but they were not produced because of the high production costs in wartime.

This was different for officers, who still had the money to buy such a helmet.

Philippe
:wink:
 

KAGGR#1

Well-known member
Bruno ;
I have a photo of a D R 2 officer in silver that I had sent to Brian to post .
He either did not get the email or forgot to post it or has not had the time .
There were 3 photos
officer D R 2 in silver
officer D R 2 in gilt
enlisted D R 2
I have not yet leaned to post photos after Photobucket

Steve McFarland
 

911car

Well-known member
This is really interesting, Steve! You learn something every day. If Brian does not have time you can send the pictures to me too.
Bruno
 
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