dumb question-NCO cockade again

[hamtaro]

Hi guys,

I though I understand abt the so called NCO kokarde, but when I read some references again, I ended up confused.

Is there such thing as the NCO kokarde? Some says that NCOs used a 'single ring' kokarde, but there are many 'NCO' haubes that has an EM kokarde, frankly speaking, I dont know how can we tell whether a haube is a NCO or not, all I can differentiate is between issued and Pvt purchase. And I understand that even an EM could also purchase an eigentums helmet.

And then some also said that its nt the ring that matters, its the size! Then whats the ring doing there? And did Senior NCOs allowed to wear a double ring kokarde?

Is there any definite guide to determine whether a haube belongs to an NCO?

Confused and thanks
BB

 

[Stu2067]

Joes the man, when it comes to this subject, check this link............

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/NCOCockade.htm


Stuart

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

but there are many 'NCO' haubes that has an EM kokarde,

Bambang, read what you said above. If it has a Mannschaften Kokarde, WHY would you classify a helmet as "NCO"?

I think I know why, it's because you are reading descriptions of helmets and dealers like to classify helmets as "NCO". This is especially true when it comes to privately purchased helmets when they could have been worn by a Private.

My number #1 piece of advice with this hobby, ignore what the seller is claiming, and use your eyes and your knowledge to determine what a helmet is.

 

[hamtaro]

Hi gang,

Yes, Tony, you are right, i was often trapped into judging a haube by READING the description given by the seller.

Sooo, if a haube has a EM kokarden but pvt purchase charateristic, then it must be an pvt purchase EM haube.

Then is there such thing as NCO kokarden? How can we tell if thats an NCO haube? Like Joe said, there is no concensus abt this NCO stuff, is there at least a guideline abt it?

Thanks
BB

 

[hamtaro]

Hi Joe,

I thinkI begin to get the hang it. As for "Rings started at Portapeeunterofficier", how many rings does a portapeeunterofficier has? 1 ring or double rings like officer's? And what rank does portapeeunterofficier begun from? Was it Vizefeldwebel onwards?


Thanks
BB

 

[Chip Minx]

According to the Prussian and Bavarian War Ministries, there were special helmet cockades for Portepee Unteroffiziere. They are pictured in Kraus's new book on the original Probe cards.

Chip

 

[joerookery]

Ah if only Jürgen would ever answer an email! Yes his wonderful book shows great examples in two different places. Here is another card shown in: Die »Zeitschrift für Heereskunde« Ausgabe 412 (April/Juni 2004 – Auszüge)

http://www.deutsche-heereskunde.de/Zeitung_412a.htm

So similar to the book there are different sizes shown. The split is at the portapee not the generic "NCO" But wait this example shows the 48mm cockade with a double ring. There are few of these but they exist.

I have seen nothing from the War Ministries on cockades except the AKO. I cannot see anything that details the type of ring in the AKO.

 

[Lost Skeleton]

Here's an observation you may find naïve. Courtesy of the legible Probe in Kraus and the one posted above by Joe, and knowing these Proben coincide with the AKO of 22 March 1897 (in which the Reichs Kokarde was authorized), and that these Proben both attribute the Kokarde in question to Feldwebel, why not simply call it the Feldwebel Kokarde and presume the label stands for Ober and Stabs as well?

Clearly, the Proben envision the Kokarde to be worn by Sergeants. For this specific Kokarde, I believe the design of the silver ring is completely arbitrary (after all, we are assessing Proben and there is no way of knowing whether the double ring seen above was ever officially accepted). IMO all that really matters is the outside diameter and the inside hole. If it fits over Knopf 91, I would regard it as issued Feldwebel. If it requires a Rosette for attachment, I would regard it as private purchase Feldwebel.

Whatever one chooses to call it, I further believe its use was rather limited. In fact, the only time I see them with a helmet is when Herr Weitze offers one replete with "NCO" Pearlring (the world according to Bowman), and M91 chinscales. Everytime I see one of these, dealer upgrade is the lasting impression.

Chas.

 

[hamtaro]

Hi Joe,

Now here is another confusing haube, it has round dome studs, pvt purchase wappen, visor trims etc, but has a double rings kokarden, what is it? Portapee NCO who bought his haube privately? Fahnrich?



hope the pic come out fine. Is this the correct way to post pic? The image wll appear smaller and new window will pop up when its clicked?

And, Joe, thanks for the pause

Thanks
BB

 

[joerookery]

I believe the design of the silver ring is completely arbitrary

That has been my point all along. I can find nothing at all that says the ring should be one way or the other. Just silver.

Proben coincide with the AKO of 22 March 1897 (in which the Reichs Kokarde was authorized)

What an AKO! 8 pages and no detail on the ring type.

these Proben both attribute the Kokarde in question to Feldwebel, why not simply call it the Feldwebel Kokarde

Fair point and it often is. Krause has three areas in his book where card mounted examples exist. Two say Feldwebel and one on pg 136 says Portapeeunterofficier. Krinkel says:

"für Offizier und Portapeeunteroffizier... mit ein silbern Ring belegt, für Unteroffiziere ohne Portapee und Gemeine ...der Mittelring aber weiß lackirt."

Menzel's says:

Fähnriche and Vizefedlwebel wear "Kopfbedeckungn Kokarde und Feldzeichen der Feldwebel". It dos not say as per the Officers.

(Krinkel on page 19 does.)

So whatever it is called, the split ring/no-ring is at Portapeeunterofficer. I think NCO is a word that does not fit said cockade. If you agree with the idea of type of silver ring doesn't matter I have a larger block than I first thought. Maybe a movement will begin!!!