Field Repair?

S

spikeymikey

Member
Hi all. I just got hold of a Prussian M15 off Ebay.
This one is in really good shape, no strap or cockades but really solid with a good liner. I was chuffed when I unwrapped it . Well, at first I was. Then I looked inside behind the plate I saw two round leather discs under the metal eyelets and lifting the discs saw the two original holes for the plate." Oh Hell" I thought - "You bloody fool - another Turkey, why did'nt you suss this one out more", - anyone familiar with that feeling? I started cursing and panicking and then the thought struck me - 'under the eyelets'. So I looked at it again. The discs are obviously old and the 'lederkiels' are in there real tight. One disc is actually a sort of oiled paper and the grommets are punched in on top with these things re-inforcing the shell where the other two holes are. No faker would do it like this, surely?
Looking at the rear peak on the left side is "RBA XVIII" and the right "BJA XVIII" with a lower case 'f' next to it.
This thing looks like it's been issued twice so I calmed down a bit and started wondering if this is an official field repair and not a bit of good old fashioned ebay chicanery.

I know 'RBA XVIII' [I think this army corps got something to do with Hesse and Nassau but this has a straight Prussian line plate on it?] but whats the other one? And what's the 'f' - a garniture mark?
Anyone got any thoughts?

Mike.



:roll: :roll:
 
Hi Mike,

Your repairs sound period and would not phase me a bit. Helmets are just equipment, they were repaired and used as long as possible as you know.

There were Preußen Line Regts in the XVIII AK. Mostly Hessen as you noted, but Füsilier-Regt. von Gerdsdorff Nr.80 was also in that AK and wore a line chicken. God-knows how many others after 1914 when Regiments went into the 400s.

THis is a long-shot, but could the f stand for Füsillier?
 
R.B.A. Reserve Beckleidungs (followed by a Roman numeral corps number)
Click to expand...
B.J.A. Bekleidings Instandsetung (Followed by a roman numeral Corps number)
Click to expand...

I think it is great fun that we have all learned so much about these marks. This forum has helped us all out. Several years ago, translating these marks was almost never done. Okay, RBA XVIII, should be for the 18th reserve Corps. I have not looked that unit up nor its internal regiments but by the time of M15's many people had adopted Prussian plates. In fact it could be a "reason" for the initial hole plugging.

BJA is the repair organization. So this helmet was sent back for repairs got the holes plugged, and may be -- may be a rear visors sewn on. Can you tell if a new rear visor has been placed on?

The F. Mark is related to the BJA. I'm not positive of the translation. At first I thought it had to do with a fabricated part. So a non-leather piece added to the helmet. A fiber rear visor for instance. I have recently seen several examples of a BJA Mark with "f" that did not have replaced visors at all. So maybe it was some sort of inspectors mark
.
e17.jpg
.

If you remember, the thread about steel ersatz helmets from Prussia, many of them had the letter "G" stamped on the back. I do not know what this means either, but it is only on steel ersatz helmets that I have seen.
 
I missed the BJA in Mike's posting. Duh. I think you are right Joe, the J must be connected to the Instandsetzungsamt. I wonder if it could be the past-tence, in that the item was marked a "repaired"? Not the German word of course which is repariert, but perhaps a "going out the door" stamp as repaired?
 
Thanks Tony and Joe.
It is interesting stuff, this, and transformes a common or garden helmet into something more than just a show piece. {But I like them as well} ]
I'm sure the mods are period - it's all locked in tight and if I take out the leather wedges to get the plate off, they may break off.
The rear visor is original to the piece Joe, same leather, stitching et all. It's thick, good quality stuff too, but the shell is very small and shallow.
I'll post some pics to you soon. That 'f' thing is the same as in your photo - like a small roman '1' with a curl at the top.

Cheers,

Mike. :D
 
Hey Mikey, I disagree with all that has been said about this helmet, I think it is a total fake, but I will take it off your hands so it will not keep you awake at night. I would even pay you 50 quid for it. If you are not up to the offer, then I willl have to admit that I do agree wioth Tony and Joe. Remember that these helmets were rather expensive and time consumong to manufacture, not all Wappen had the same spacing on the mounting loops, and it was noe easy to change the lops, but punching another hole was very easy. This type of repair has been seen before, and I suspect that it is just a matter of time before the fakers start to use it on some of the double holed helmets made by knuckelheads.
Gus
 
easy to change the lops, but punching another hole was very easy.
Click to expand...
.

I think in the case of filled holes on issue helmets, the BJA pulled out the old grommets and put new grommets in. So there should be a properly filled and covered set of holes and a pair of grommets with the current plate through them.

Private purchase helmets did not go through the BJA. So we often see double holes in these helmets. "Conventional wisdom." Is that all double holes are bad. Many are explainable but many are not. It could be as you said Gus, maybe a mounting post broke, and it was easier to punch the holes after the thing was resoldered. It does seem to be an automatic reduction in the value of the helmet.
 
Its possible to find any combination of holes & grommets on BJA helmets.

-Grommets on both sets of holes. (I even have one re-issue helmet were feldgrau grommets have been installed just slightly overlapping the original brass or tombak grommets from the original wappen)

-Sometimes you can see them with-out any grommets at all on the new holes, while the original grommets are still present.. However, if there are no BJA markings.. This combo should be viewed with a little bit of caution.... as it could possibly be collector/dealer restored wappen. You really need to take all the other fittings into consideration as well when looking at one of these. And of course.. If you see a helmet with rare wappen, be super careful.

Not all helmets that went through the repair depots were BJA marked. Some are unmarked.. & others can be found with a large "X" ink-stamped onto the rear visor. Interestingly, the germans utilized the "X" stamping on allot of re-issued & reworked clothing items (mostly feldblouse) during the Third Reich period as well.

Once I get my camera going, will post some photo's of the above combo's

Pete
 
This is developing into an interesting thread. I guess ideally it would warrant plugging as Joe suggests, but this looks like they were in a hurry. As I said, one disc is a piece of oiled lpaper, maybe cartridge paper with some numbers on, like it was cut out of the nearest peice of servicable material.The plate looks like the dies were wearing out too. The funny thing is that the leather is of a pre-war quality and the liner is really sound.

Joe, you say this repair de-values the helmet to the collector. What kind of % drop would one expect. Personally, I think it adds interest and you cant see the repair, but I know what you mean. :cry:

Thanks too Ersatz Boy - for more stuff the books dont tell you!
 
you say this repair de-values the helmet to the collector
Click to expand...
Mike I didn't mean repairs I just mean double holes in general. How many times is the first question: "it got double holes?"
 
Mike

Personally I don't think it devaluates the helmet at all., In fact I actively seek out helmets that have gone through the repair depot system. To me, it just adds that extra layer of history to an item.

Don't get me wrong.. I love untouched helmets & war bond examples as well. But there is just something about a helmet that saw active service, went back for repair & was then rushed into service again that just does it for me.

Pete
 
Mike

I also agree with Joe about the "double hole" questioning...

As long as the helmet is a legit BJA example, there should be no effect on price.

However, if the helmet is a piece-O-crap example that has been dicked with post war then that's another story.. I would say it cuts the value in ½. or more.

The trick is learning to tell the good from the bad... & from what I read above (with-out having the helmet in hand).. I would say you have a good one

Pete
 
Hi you fellas,
I agree also with Joe's comment -thats one of the first questions I always ask too. I did'nt get time in this case - I saw it late on and the price was not too high so I dived in. There was only 3 pictures of it but I could see a lot of what looked like depot stamps and a good liner. Lucky really - could've been much worse! I just got a new card for the camera so I'll post some shots soon, I hope!
I dont think this has been "dicked around" with at all - completely untouched by the looks of it. Must have been in that french barn all these years. :lol:
 
Hey Mike, well done on an eBay snag. Just to be on the safe side please PM me with your eBay name. The last thing I want to do is bid up against another member. Come to think of it what about a private zone for all our eBay names.... That way we don't bid against each other.

Being new to the site I suspect that I havn't had the chance to learn other members eBay names. What do you fell about this???
 
Hey Mike,
The problem with listing ebay names is that if you see something I am bidding on, if you want it, you had better bid, it would be a shome for someone we do not know to get a bargin because everyone was not bidding because a member had a bid on something. My bids are usually low, as I do not want to have to explain to Maggie why I am needing more money (I do sometimes get a real bargin on a low bid). Also, establishing a non-bidding pact is not fair to the sellers (members also sell on ebay too) and could be construed as price fixing or racketteering. My thought is that the amount a person is willing to spend should set the selling price.
Best wihses
Gus
 
Hey Joe - I really need to change my spec's! Your'e right this thing has had new visors - both front and back and shows two old rows of stitch holes - the lower one right on the bottom edge has been cut right through when the thing was cut down - so the shell would have originally been much higher. I will send you some pictures!
 
Private purchase helmets did not go through the BJA.
Click to expand...

Greetings All!

Just playing the Devil's advocate, here, but it occurred to me that there may have been occasions where private purchase helmets found their way into the BJA depots: Helmets that, one way or another, got separated from their owners; or private "favours" - everyone uses their networks to get things done, I am sure that was particularly true in the trenches.

Just a reminder that we need to keep an open mind on these issues. Every time we pronounce an absolute, an exception is going to jump up and bite us.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top