Generaloberst mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls

[Glennj]

I have discovered a bit of a discrepancy in the accepted historiography of the insignia of the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall). I will not go into too much detail just now as I am working through the sources but would appreciate any input especially from the noted shoulder board and epaulet collectors on the forum.

Pietsch, states that the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall) was created in 1854 (true) and the insignia was three stars plus the marshals’ batons. However, the introductory order of 30 March 1854 (in the Militär Wochenblatt) makes absolutely no reference to batons and merely illustrates the layout of three stars. Adalbert Mila in his “Uniformierungsliste” of 1869, 1876 and 1878 again states that just three stars are worn. The official Anzugsbestimmungen für Offiziere und Miliär-Beamten” of 1870 could not be more explicit:

„b, der Generaloberst der Infanterie und der General-Feldzeugmeister der Artillerie: drei Sterne;“

Only in the 1879 edition of Helldorf’s “Dienstvorschriten” concerning dress (Anzug) is the use of crossed batons and 3 stars for this rank explicitly stated.

All of which would leave me to conclude (if Mila is correct) that this insignia of rank (that is, with the batons) was introduced around 1878/79 (and at the very least between 1871 and 1878) and not 1854.

Just for clarification purposes, all those holding the rank of a Generaloberst prior to 1900 were just as senior to those holding the substantive rank of a General-Feldmarschall and held the title "mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls".

The situation with regards to the brevet (charakterisierte General-Feldmarschall) is another story!

Regards
Glenn

 

[KAGGR#1]

I have discovered a bit of a discrepancy in the accepted historiography of the insignia of the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall). I will not go into too much detail just now as I am working through the sources but would appreciate any input especially from the noted shoulder board and epaulet collectors on the forum.

Pietsch, states that the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall) was created in 1854 (true) and the insignia was three stars plus the marshals’ batons. However, the introductory order of 30 March 1854 (in the Militär Wochenblatt) makes absolutely no reference to batons and merely illustrates the layout of three stars. Adalbert Mila in his “Uniformierungsliste” of 1869, 1876 and 1878 again states that just three stars are worn. The official Anzugsbestimmungen für Offiziere und Miliär-Beamten” of 1870 could not be more explicit:

„b, der Generaloberst der Infanterie und der General-Feldzeugmeister der Artillerie: drei Sterne;“

Only in the 1879 edition of Helldorf’s “Dienstvorschriten” concerning dress (Anzug) is the use of crossed batons and 3 stars for this rank explicitly stated.

All of which would leave me to conclude (if Mila is correct) that this insignia of rank (that is, with the batons) was introduced around 1878/79 (and at the very least between 1871 and 1878) and not 1854.

Just for clarification purposes, all those holding the rank of a Generaloberst prior to 1900 were just as senior to those holding the substantive rank of a General-Feldmarschall and held the title "mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls".

The situation with regards to the brevet (charakterisierte General-Feldmarschall) is another story!

Regards
Glenn

Glenn ;
Thanks for your post and the study of this subject .
I am not the person to give out the correct dates for the changes of
the shoulder strap rank .
I think maybe Mike Kelso knows the dates
From my years of collecting and examples of shoulder straps & epaulettes
in my collection the best examples that I can give are
Fred I of Baden ; his straps & epaulettes always had 3rank stars and the crossed batons ;
then Fred II of Baden took over as Chef of the same regiments (or a al suite)
his straps and epaulettes were always 4 rank stars only ; NO crossed batons
Fred I Chef LGR109
Fred II Chef I R 113
Fred II epaulettes ChefI R 113 ; a al suite 1 Garde Uhlan Regt
Steve

 

[KAGGR#1]

I have discovered a bit of a discrepancy in the accepted historiography of the insignia of the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall). I will not go into too much detail just now as I am working through the sources but would appreciate any input especially from the noted shoulder board and epaulet collectors on the forum.

Pietsch, states that the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall) was created in 1854 (true) and the insignia was three stars plus the marshals’ batons. However, the introductory order of 30 March 1854 (in the Militär Wochenblatt) makes absolutely no reference to batons and merely illustrates the layout of three stars. Adalbert Mila in his “Uniformierungsliste” of 1869, 1876 and 1878 again states that just three stars are worn. The official Anzugsbestimmungen für Offiziere und Miliär-Beamten” of 1870 could not be more explicit:

„b, der Generaloberst der Infanterie und der General-Feldzeugmeister der Artillerie: drei Sterne;“

Only in the 1879 edition of Helldorf’s “Dienstvorschriten” concerning dress (Anzug) is the use of crossed batons and 3 stars for this rank explicitly stated.

All of which would leave me to conclude (if Mila is correct) that this insignia of rank (that is, with the batons) was introduced around 1878/79 (and at the very least between 1871 and 1878) and not 1854.

Just for clarification purposes, all those holding the rank of a Generaloberst prior to 1900 were just as senior to those holding the substantive rank of a General-Feldmarschall and held the title "mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls".

The situation with regards to the brevet (charakterisierte General-Feldmarschall) is another story!

Regards
Glenn

Knowing the death dates of some who wore the straps and epaulettes might pinpoint
when the insignia was worn
Graf Waldersee was a al suite to Uhlan Regt 13 he had 3 rank stars and crossed batons
Bernhard a al suite to GGR 2 had 4 rank stars only
the mystery for Mike Kelso and myself is the shoulder strap of Carl Alexander Chef of I R 94
according to his death date his shoulder strap should have had 3 rank stars and crossed batons
yet it has 4 rank stars only .The change came about after his death .
Mike owned the strap at one time and traded it to me
Steve

 

[Sandmann]

Glenn, as you wrote correctly, the „Generaloberst der Infanterie“ and the „General-Feldzeugmeister“ wore 3 stars on their epaulettes (published military weekly 1854, No. 703 of March 30, 1854). But the 3 stars were only for the rank „Generaloberst der Infanterie“ and had nothing to do with a „Generalfeldmarschall“.
As far as I know, „Generalfeldmarschall“ was the highest military honor title for different ranks. In the book „Heerwesen u. Infanteriedienst der königlich preußischen Armee (1854)" it is generally written on page 11: „Der Generalfeldmarschall hat 2 über das Kreuz gelegte Kommandostäbe in den Epauletten (Translation: The Field Marshal has 2 crossed command batons in his epaulettes."
So I think when a „Generaloberst“ wore 3 stars on the epaulettes, then a „General-Oberst mit dem Rang eines Generalfeldmarschalls“ had 3 stars and 2 crossed command batons on the epaulettes from the start.

 

[ccj]

Fascinating subject. I've always wondered why a General-Oberst would be given the rank of General-Oberst mit dem Rang eines Generalfeldmarschalls and not just promoted to Generalfeldmarschall.

Wonderful shoulder boards.

This may be a very educational thread...

 

[Glennj]

But the 3 stars were only for the rank „Generaloberst der Infanterie“ and had nothing to do with a „Generalfeldmarschall“. Sandy,

Sandy,

this is where we must disagree. As I said in my earlier post, "all those holding the rank of a Generaloberst prior to 1900 were just as senior to those holding the substantive rank of a General-Feldmarschall and held the title "mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls"."

please see below an extract from the 1854 Rangliste and also the King's letter to his brother (Prince of Prussia and later Kaiser Wilhelm I) on his appointment as a Generaloberst der Infanterie clearly stating that that the rank had the same Würde or worth (equivalence) to that of a GFM. "Es soll der Rang dieser Würde dem eines Generalfeldmarschalls entsprechen"

Regards
Glenn

 

[Sandmann]

Sorry Glenn, this text was new for me. In this case I understand your confusion, because the AKO from March 30, 1854 clearly describes 3 stars only. But another possibility is that this text below was only meant for the princes. If a Generaloberst should intclude a Generalfeldmarschall in any case, it would make no sense to describe it below the rank every time.
I will investigate further in my old books, Glenn

 

[Glennj]

Knowing the death dates of some who wore the straps and epaulettes might pinpoint
when the insignia was worn

Steve,

Thank you for your reply. I think by and large, the situation in the later period is somewhat clearer. Certainly after 1879 the wear of the batons and three stars is documented albeit without an introductory order. And of course, the introduction of the 4 star rank is published in the 1911 Armee-Verordnungsblatt.

The problem with the earlier holders of the rank is a paucity of available high quality photographs during the sixties and early seventies which clearly show the shoulder insignia in wear. In “Die Generale der Deutschen Armee von 1848-1871” by G. von Glasenapp and published in 1879, the portraits of the Kaiser and Generaloberst Prinz August von Württemberg do show the batons clearly.

Around 1900, the Generaloberst (m.d.Range eines Generalfeldmarschalls) lost their equivalence in rank to the actual Generalfeldmarschall and were subsequently listed under the latter in the seniority register. I wish to reiterate that the first promotions to the “normal” rank of Generaloberst happened in 1901 with the promotions to that rank of Generals von Hahnke and Graf von Haeseler (18 January 1901).

Regards
Glenn

 

[Glennj]

it would make no sense to describe it below the rank every time.

Hi Sandy,

actually in some years they did and others not! Here is a page from the 1873. You will note that the GFM, GO and General-Feldzeugmeister are listed together according to seniority, with the two brevet (char.) Generalfeldmarschälle at the bottom. General-Feldzeugmeister Prinz Carl von Preußen in this edition is listed just at that. Großherzog Friedrich Franz and Prinz August von Württemberg are listed as Generaloberst.

Regards
Glenn

 

[Sandmann]

Hello Glenn,
I think I have found some information that could bring light on this topic…
According different entries in military newspapers, service regulations and encyclopedia I've found, the rank Generaloberst had only 3 stars in the epaulettes, no batons.

• Example 1 is an picture from a service regulation for bavarian OYV (1883). The epaulette Fig. 2 shows only stars, no batons).
• According to "Meyers Konversationslexikon" (1887), page 84, the rank of Generaloberst was just something of an honorary title only for army inspection.
• But interesting was an article in the magazine "Über Land und Meer: Deutsche illustrierte Zeitung", vol 60, page 982. According to this, it was unusual for Prussian princes to hold the rank of Generalfeldmarschall until 1870. For this reason the Generaloberst followed for them. Wilhelm I. was raised to the mentioned rank during his brother's reign and initially wore the uniform with 3 stars on the epaulettes even as emperor. But when he proclaimed other princes to the rank "Generaloberst" the princes persuaded him to wear the marshal's batons so that he could be distinguished from them according to his status. Later, I think, other high princes wanted to feel like a field marshal too and since they were princes, they were allowed to do so.

But according to all that I have read in service regulations, encyclopedia entries, the general colonel wore only the 3 stars as a insignia.

(Source 1: Handbuch für bayerischen Einjährig-Freiwilligen, den Unteroffizier, Offizier (1883), page 123)


(Source 2: Über Land und Meer: Deutsche illustrierte Zeitung", vol 60, page 982)

 

[Glennj]

Hi Sandy,

I was aware of the old tradition that Hohenzollern princes were not promoted to Generalfeldmarschall and the story as related in your second source seems very credible to me. What is also clear is that all the following promotions to Generaloberst were accompanied by the additional rank as a field marshal and afforded the wearer the use of batons until the “normal“ promotions in 1901. There is a very clear photograph of Friedrich Franz II von Mecklenburg-Schwerin wearing the batons and stars.

In the absence of any published order, one may assume, the authority for the practice was perhaps a verbal order from the Kaiser and King?

Regards
Glenn

 

[KAGGR#1]

Steve,

Thank you for your reply. I think by and large, the situation in the later period is somewhat clearer. Certainly after 1879 the wear of the batons and three stars is documented albeit without an introductory order. And of course, the introduction of the 4 star rank is published in the 1911 Armee-Verordnungsblatt.

The problem with the earlier holders of the rank is a paucity of available high quality photographs during the sixties and early seventies which clearly show the shoulder insignia in wear. In “Die Generale der Deutschen Armee von 1848-1871” by G. von Glasenapp and published in 1879, the portraits of the Kaiser and Generaloberst Prinz August von Württemberg do show the batons clearly.

Around 1900, the Generaloberst (m.d.Range eines Generalfeldmarschalls) lost their equivalence in rank to the actual Generalfeldmarschall and were subsequently listed under the latter in the seniority register. I wish to reiterate that the first promotions to the “normal” rank of Generaloberst happened in 1901 with the promotions to that rank of Generals von Hahnke and Graf von Haeseler (18 January 1901).

Regards
Glenn

Glenn
I have a pair of straps to GFM von Hahnke to the KAGGR # 1
I bought them many years ago at a German auction
I think it was Graf Klenau
they were I D 'ed to him
Steve

 

[KAGGR#1]

Hello Glenn,
I think I have found some information that could bring light on this topic…
According different entries in military newspapers, service regulations and encyclopedia I've found, the rank Generaloberst had only 3 stars in the epaulettes, no batons.

• Example 1 is an picture from a service regulation for bavarian OYV (1883). The epaulette Fig. 2 shows only stars, no batons).
• According to "Meyers Konversationslexikon" (1887), page 84, the rank of Generaloberst was just something of an honorary title only for army inspection.
• But interesting was an article in the magazine "Über Land und Meer: Deutsche illustrierte Zeitung", vol 60, page 982. According to this, it was unusual for Prussian princes to hold the rank of Generalfeldmarschall until 1870. For this reason the Generaloberst followed for them. Wilhelm I. was raised to the mentioned rank during his brother's reign and initially wore the uniform with 3 stars on the epaulettes even as emperor. But when he proclaimed other princes to the rank "Generaloberst" the princes persuaded him to wear the marshal's batons so that he could be distinguished from them according to his status. Later, I think, other high princes wanted to feel like a field marshal too and since they were princes, they were allowed to do so.

But according to all that I have read in service regulations, encyclopedia entries, the general colonel wore only the 3 stars as a insignia.

(Source 1: Handbuch für bayerischen Einjährig-Freiwilligen, den Unteroffizier, Offizier (1883), page 123)

View attachment 26194
(Source 2: Über Land und Meer: Deutsche illustrierte Zeitung", vol 60, page 982)
View attachment 26195

Here is von Kluck with 3 stars
Steve

 

[Sandmann]

Hello Glenn,
I found another sources that might help.
A new draft of the clothing regulations for officers was announced in the "Armee-Verordnungsblatt 1895". In this clothing regulations I found for the first time the description of epaulettes for the "Generaloberst" with 3 stars and crossed batons (Draft - Clothing regulations for officers 1895, page 117, §109b).
But in the official Handbook for OYV of the foot artillery from 1894 on page 26 the, epaulettes for Generaloberst was still described with only 3 stars. That’s why I think the 1st mentioned reference was the official introduction of the new epaulette-design with batons for the "Generaloberst".

 

[Glennj]

Hi Sandy,

the first official mention I have encountered for the 3 stars and crossed batons is in Helldorf's "Dienst-Vorschriften der Königlich Preußischen Armee Zweiter Teil, Zweite Abteilung I. Anzug", Berlin 1879.

The final edition of Adalbert Mila's "Uniformirungs-Liste des Deutschen Reichs-Heeres und der Kaiserlich Deutschen Marine", Berlin 1881 also mentions this insignia for the first time.

Regards
Glenn

 

[03FAHNEN]

Thank you all for the interesting information.

A photo of William I, showing the three stars and the crossed batons the Generaloberst with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall

 

[03FAHNEN]

And a photo of Großherzog Friedrich I. where you can clearly see the stars and the crossed batons.

 

[Glennj]

Just to add to the confusion! Here is Wilhelm I's effigy at the mausoleum in Charlottenburg.

Regards
Glenn

 

[Sandmann]

Great photos, thank you very much for sharing.
Also we won’t find the correct date when the regulation tho wear batons and stars on the epaulettes, I think it is a very informative post. It shows again how the high nobility took out special rights for themselves, just as they liked.
But I think the official introduction to wear batons and stars came with the introduction of the new officer's dress code in 1895. Handbooks and service regulations, as we have seen, contain different information in this regard up to 1894. However, the dress code is binding for me.

 

[Glennj]

Just found these at the Royal collection showing Wilhelm I before the Franco-Prussian war and exactly as it should be according to the 1854 AKO.

Sandy, As you say, one cannot get more official than the Bekleidungsvorschrift (although I view Helldorff as official) what is without doubt, in practice, the insignia was introduced in the early seventies

Best wishes
Glenn