Hessian EM on eBay

Peter_Suciu

Peter_Suciu

Well-known member
Any opinions on this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-HESSIAN-EM-Spike-Helmet_W0QQitemZ6560819504QQcategoryZ13965QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
Peter-

looks like a good one, and in nice shape as well, appears to be original Hessian Kokorden which is a plus!

Nice Original Spike!

James
 
Hi Peter,

Welcome to the forum, we haven't corresponded before.

I am still pretty new at this game so I will defer to others more knowledgeable than myself, but a few things that stand out:

1) Looking at the helmet, overall, I get the impression of normal wear and a very careful cleaning up. Someone has done a not bad job of restoring this piece. That said, the cockades look correct, but brand spanking new compared with the rest of the helmet. Not a huge sin, just another anomaly.

2) Whereas all of the other hardware is feldgrau, the spike looks like tarnished german silver. I think it is the correct type of spike, but it doesn't match the rest of the hardware - a small anomaly.

3) The re-filled badge holes is a turn-off for me, but let's hear what some of the more experienced members of the community have to say.

4) Missing its liner string. That is a mortal sin! I'd write this one off on that point alone! Just kidding.

In sum, a good basic helmet that has been reconditioned with maybe a few new parts, not a complete original as the seller suggests. The one real negative (in my mind) is the refilled holes for the badge.

As to pricing, I will be interested in what the rest of the world has to say on this point, but to me, $600 to $700 would be about right, this seller is expecting too much if it hasn't reached reserve yet.

Good luck with your collecting.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
I'm not more experienced. I just have opinions. I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn express last night. I do not like this helmet, Peter. I think the seller is being as honest as he can be but the real question is -- is this the kind of helmet, we want?

First to price -- for some reason, anything Hessian is really expensive. Relative rarity does not support the price differential. Nonetheless, if you have a Hessian helmet. You can often get $1000, off eBay. So I do not think the seller has an anything other than analyze the cost of existing helmets.

There were two types of Hessian M15 helmets. These are detailed on page 194 and 195 of the Trawnik book. This one would be the first type. I do not think it is all original. Cockades and chin strap, I think are replaced. And of course the problem you have with issued helmets is getting all the parts to match. Where is the depot Mark? If you look at the helmet rear visor blown up. You will see that there is an erased portion. Was this previously a depot mark? I'm hesitant to buy a helmet that has no mark. Of course we know all of the helmets that have no marks, but one with an area that is clearly erased?

The Hessian plate appears to be mounted east-west and fits through grommets from a producer in Neu Ulm. I would have to see the back of the plate. Why would holes have been added to a shell when the final holes have grommets? I like the cruciform base, but I wonder if there are holes for around plate also. I do not like the spike match.

So there you go another long-winded opinion. We seem to have a lot of them this week.
 
Hello,
in my opinion it is a nice helmet, especially as it still has the typical hessian spike model.
Yet, I agree with Joe on the point that the hessian cocade is probably a copy : the red appears a little to vivid. Regarding chinstrap ... well not sure either.
Patrick
 
Patrick,

Always great to hear another opinion! But do we have a registration problem? You're listed as a guest with your screen name. I think I saw Bruno with the same kind of problem. Is there a registration problem?

Back on the helmet -- he should be able to twist off the spike -- is it magnetic? Love to see a picture with the spike off.
 
Hello Joe,

when I try to login, it refuses my ID... I guess that my registration data was lost, this makes me appear as guest. I'll re register when the site is up again.

Regarding the maker of this helmet this one is not common. Müller & Co / Offenbach is probably the most usual one. Do you have hessian helmets from Neu Ulm in your collections ?

Patrick
 
patoch74 said:
Do you have hessian helmets from Neu Ulm in your collections ?
Click to expand...

I know that I have several Baden and Württemberg examples marked "Hans Romer Neu Ulm 1916" on the inside skull.

fgh01c.jpg


I'll check the Hessens when I get home. T
 
kaiserzeit said:
the spike looks like tarnished german silver.
Click to expand...

Hi Laurie:

I felt good enough about this one to throw in an early bid. My opinion regarding the spike is that M15 helmets and their spikes were quickly separated due to the AKO directive dictating they were no longer to worn in the field. Look at this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:78&item=6561827980

The Hessen helmet on eBay does have a Hessen M15 Spike, and I believe it to be steel with most of its paint worn away. It was most likely fitted to a different Hessen helmet originally.

joerookery said:
Where is the depot Mark? If you look at the helmet rear visor blown up. You will see that there is an erased portion. Was this previously a depot mark?
Click to expand...

Solid point, Joe. However, I have encountered several M95 helmets that have been likewise defaced, despite everything else proving correct. Also, consider the chances we collectors take with officer helmets, where this criteria doesn't even apply. There could be a less sinister explanation for all this. If one were facing capture, and his helmet could tie him to a specific unit, what measures might he take (extremely far fetched I know, but not an impossibility)? Then there is the B.I.A. to consider. Could they have played a part in this?

Although the extra Wappen holes are problematic, this helmet is also fitted with a cruciform base. Are there holes for a round spike base hidden or plugged beneath all that? We should consider the distribution of all the holes, not just focus on those for the Wappen.

Regarding the Kokarden, the Reichskokarde looks like the Sachsen style (it could just be my monitor). Has anyone encountered this on a Hessen before? I don't like the candy striper red either, but photography doesn't always render colors accurately.

Bottom line, with all the questions and a burgeoning pricetag, I don't think I'll be bidding again.

Chas.
 
Hi Charles,

Thank you for pitching in.

One question: Is there such a thing as a bayonet mount M1915 Hessian spike or was that a mechanism used only by the Prussians?

Cheers,

Laurie
 
Hi Laurie:

The bayonet mount M15 was adopted universally and represented a genuine effort to standardize the Pickelhaube throughout Imperial Germany.

In fact, it would be a subject for a great thread: fluted, Kugel, Kürassier, etc.

Chas.
 
epsomgreen said:
Regarding the Kokarden, the Reichskokarde looks like the Sachsen style (it could just be my monitor). Has anyone encountered this on a Hessen before?
Click to expand...

Link to the helmet>> http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh38.htm

fgh38c.jpg
 
Greetings All!

The bayonet mount M15 was adopted universally and represented a genuine effort to standardize the Pickelhaube throughout Imperial Germany.

In fact, it would be a subject for a great thread: fluted, Kugel, Kürassier, etc.
Click to expand...

Right! the gauntlet is down! I second Charles' motion and have gone as far as to start a new thread:

http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=503#503

I've added some photos from my archive. Please help me finish the job.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
Hi Tony:

It's good to see the Mighty Kaiser Avatar once again (even if he is flashing that snaggletooth). You've shown us a textbook Landskokarde.

What does the Reichskokarde look like on your Hessen Arty?

Chas.
 
OK...my opinion. First, I would also like to see the spike top in the "off" position. Second this helmet has the enlarged Hessen style spike support disc which is a correct characteristic. Third, look how tightly the cruciform arms suck down to the crown of the helmet shell. In my opinion, you are looking at years of conformity between leather and metal there.
Last FYI there are 2 styles of Hessen Spike tops that I have seen on pre M15 OR's and officer helmets. The first, is the typical crimped spike with soldered round base attatched which screws into the spike neck ie. like a Bavarian officer spike. The second variation is fluted spike tip with no round base attached. My JR 115 helmet has the screw on spike tip while my Hessen reserve officer has the Hessen style spike with round base that screws on over the spike neck. My brass Hessen OR from JR116 (marked) which did not wear trichter has a similar spike to the officer only it does not unscrew.
All of this conjecture of course would be solved if we could lay hands on this piece and give it a thorough going over. Brian
 
Hi Brian,

Thank you for your very instructive commentary.

Would you be able to conjur up two pictures comparing the Hessian spike types? I haven't handled enough examples to be able to envision what you are describing.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
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