Jolly Good -- My Latest British Helmets

Wyliecoyote

New member
This is not exactly on topic guys, but the mention Of the Hanovarian Royal Arms reminded me of a British Army hat badge I came across recently looking up an answer for a military trivia question, which led me to this website:

http://www.krh.org.uk/

and this hat badge belonging to the King's Royal Hussar's:



Following is their description of the hat badge:

THE PRUSSIAN EAGLE

The Prussian Eagle (also known as the Hawk), with the letters FR emblazoned on its breast, is the cap badge of The King's Royal Hussars. It is the insignia of the Royal House of Prussia and was awarded to the 14th LightDragoons in 1798 by the Crown Princess Frederica of Prussia. The award was a mark of Royal favour, after the 14th had escorted her from Dover to London prior to her marriage to the Duke of York. The Regiment also adopted at this time the title 14th, or Duchess of York's Own Regiment of Light Dragoons, and changed its facings from lemon yellow to Brandenburgh Orange, the livery colour of the Royal House of Prussia.

Must have surprised & puzzled the first Imperial German soldiers who came in contact with these Hussar's during WWI.

Figured you might be interested. I do not collect UK, but I do enjoy the pics and info from the members who do!

Geo
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
Beautiful pieces all around gentlemen!! So much history portrayed by these items from Waterloo battle honours to Tudor Rose chin scale bosses. The small Prussian eagle badge....another example of the close family ties between the royal houses of Prussia and England. Brian
 

stuart_bates

New member
Geo,

Some further information on badges.

There was a badge without the eagle which was the royal crest (Lion over crown) within the garter and a lower scroll inscribed 14th Hussars. The eagle badge was discontinued in 1915 but restored to the regiment in 1931. So this badge was worn 1915-1922 prior to the amalamation with the 20th Hussars in 1922 when the badge was inscribed 14th/20th Hussars.

The 14th having seniority at their amalgamation with the 20th in 1922 retained their eagle badge for the combined regiment when the eagle was restored to the regiment in 1931. The regiment was retitled the 14th/20th King's Hussars in 1936.

The King's Royal Hussars was formed by the amalgamation in 1992 of the 14th/20th King's Hussars and the Royal Hussars.

These badges were worn on the Forage and Field service caps and not on the Busbies. Fascinating stuff. Below is my 20th Hussars Busby.

Stuart


20thHussars.jpg
[/img]
 

zipperheads9

New member
Nice pieces ,This is the ugliest of Shako's for the Brittish ,in my humble opinion ( sorry) . I always wonderered what any of the Brittish troops thought of any Wappen with Napoleonic battle honours. Waterloo Penninsela etc.
MArk
 

stuart_bates

New member
Sorry, Mark, I can't agree, for me the Bell Topped shako was easily the most beautiful of all of the British Shakos. It was elegant but top heavy. In fact, the shakos were never really popular with the troops and were frequently substituted for forage caps in action - especially in India and the Crimea.

Below is my 1855 pattern which is very ordinary by comparison.

BTW: what is a "Wappen".

Stuart
9thFootOficersShako1855.jpg
 

Lost Skeleton

Active member
Hello Stuart:

I've really been admiring your helmets and informative descriptions. Please do continue. I can appreciate you must have a considerable fortune invested in these treasures.

Wappen is the German word for "coat of arms." I suspect "regimental badge" or "plate" is the correct terminology for British headdress.

I would love to learn more. What references do you recommend?

Welcome to the forum.

Chas.
 

stuart_bates

New member
Chas,

thanks for the compliments and for explaining Wappen. I have 85 helmets/caps in my collection and yes some are worth quite a bit. I would like to display them all as a collection but I don't think pickelhaube is the right forum being mainly German, although I've got away with 4 so far :).

As a starter for reference books I would recommend the following -

Barthorp, Michael - British Cavalry Uniforms since 1660
Barthorp, Michael - British Infantry Uniforms since 1660
Carman, W. Y. - British Headdresses Cavalry
Carman, W. Y. - British Headdresses Yeomanry

and of course for badges the bible -

Kipling & King - Head-Dress Badges of the British Army Vol. 1 (up to 1918)

There are many, many more but these are not as specific ie. not devoted to a particular unit and therefore better for startup.

Cheers,

Stuart
 

stuart_bates

New member
Hi Mark,

I always wonderered what any of the Brittish troops thought of any Wappen with Napoleonic battle honours. Waterloo Penninsela etc.

Now that I know what Wappen means I can answer your question.

British regiments have a tradition whereby each regiment thinks of itself as better than all of the others. Battle honours, these days appearing on the regimental colours, are one way in which regiments can display their prowess to their "rivals". For example, a regiment that fought at Waterloo has considerable cache over one that didn't.

Other regimental distinctions such as helmet/cap badges, for example the Gloucester Regiment's wearing a small badge to the back of their helmet, also reinforce this regimental rivalry. The Gloucesters' received this distinction during the Egyptian campaign of 1801 where they were attacked from behind by the French and their rear rank about-faced and beat off that attack.

Hope this makes sense.

Stuart

GloucesterBackView.jpg


Photo courtesy of the Gloucester Museum
 

Lost Skeleton

Active member
Hi Stuart:

I know Mark will speak for himself when next he rings in, but I believe he intended to write, "I always wonderered what any of the German troops thought of any Wappen with Napoleonic battle honours. Waterloo Penninsela etc."

For example, this is what Füsilier Regiment General-Feldmarschall Prinz Albrecht von Preußen (Hannoversches) Nr. 73 wore into battle in 1914. These Bandau were authorized for wear in 1899 by Wilhelm II to commemorate Hannover's role in campaigning as the King's German Legion.

It would appear regimental pride transcends shifting alliances.

Your helmets are more at home here than you may have thought.

Chas.

PICT0446.jpg


PICT0442.jpg
 

stuart_bates

New member
Hi Chas,

I know Mark will speak for himself when next he rings in, but I believe he intended to write, "I always wonderered what any of the German troops thought of any Wappen with Napoleonic battle honours. Waterloo Penninsela etc."

well that does make more sense as I must admit I didn't really get the gist of what Mark was asking. Thanks for clarifying the matter.

That is a beautiful helmet by the way. This forum is really opening my eyes to another world of helmet collecting. I decided very early on that I would specialize in British helmets up to 1914 (when full dress was withdrawn) as it's so difficult to be conversant on everything, although I know people who try.

Stuart
 

zipperheads9

New member
I know about brittish battle honours . I work with a canadian Regimental museum . Sorry for the confusion , I was refering to the comment made about the eagle and brittish troops .
I admire the hbell top Shako But I do feel personally that the 1860's versions i have seen had a nicer cut , just my opinion.
Welcome to the forum , please keep putting up pics and references as some guys on here collect more than just German headgear.
My unit Allied with the welsh Regiment ( 41st Regiment ) in 1928 . During the Great war the unit was Digging Trenches and getting ready for it's service Overseas . It found a Complete set of 41st Button's and Breat Plate .It was presented to the 41st Regiment during the war and steps were taken to ally ourselves with them .
Mark
 

stuart_bates

New member
Hi Mark,

yes, I think we both suffered from a little confusion but that's all clarified now.

I still can't agree with you about the shakos, but the 1869 version was not too bad. To tell the truth I don't much care for shakos anyway, but likes and dislikes can't stop a collector from acquiring that part of the history he/she is collecting.

I envy those who work in regimental museums and I am in contact with several in the UK including the National Army Museum which has over 30,000 items. Being a curator there must be the best job in the world, except for being bombarded by people like me with question after question. But that's part of why they are there.

BTW: do you have any information or drawings of 18th Century British forage caps?

Good to talk to you.

Cheers,

Stuart
 

Peter_Suciu

Well-known member
stuart_bates said:
I decided very early on that I would specialize in British helmets up to 1914 (when full dress was withdrawn) as it's so difficult to be conversant on everything, although I know people who try.

Stuart, one British MkI helmet wouldn't hurt... but some say that's a gateway helmet.
 

stuart_bates

New member
Gateway, indeed Peter.

I have enough to do with my research on British stuff pre 1914. If I branched out into steel pots or the German or French stuff I would never be able to leave the house.

My collection is dress helmets and forage caps only, you know the pretty stuff, and steel helmets wouldn't fit at all. I would like a soft trench cap of WWI though.

Nice try.

Stuart
 
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