Kürassier Helmet ersatz
- Thread starter brusik1
- Start date
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
These helmets are discussed on page 92 of Johansson's book Pickelhauben and on page 74 of Kube's book Militaria.
The examples that I have seen and read about have pressed rivets for the spike base as well as pressed shell rivets. Your spike base looks 100% authentic for this type of helmet even though it is attached with screw fasteners. I cannot remember if the spike was removable or not on the ones I've seen. Is this spike removable?
These helmets were made of thinner metal than a standard M15 Kurassier and it seems that most were painted an olive green color.
The Kokarden on this helmet are not proper, in my opinion, because they are the officer "twin ring" type. This helmet should have enlisted Kokarden, either 63mm or 48mm.
Here is another example:
http://griffinmilitaria.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=14430&cat=45&page=32&search=&since=0&status=&title=
Congratulations on a rare and unusual helmet. Excellent find.
John :bravo:
The examples that I have seen and read about have pressed rivets for the spike base as well as pressed shell rivets. Your spike base looks 100% authentic for this type of helmet even though it is attached with screw fasteners. I cannot remember if the spike was removable or not on the ones I've seen. Is this spike removable?
These helmets were made of thinner metal than a standard M15 Kurassier and it seems that most were painted an olive green color.
The Kokarden on this helmet are not proper, in my opinion, because they are the officer "twin ring" type. This helmet should have enlisted Kokarden, either 63mm or 48mm.
Here is another example:
http://griffinmilitaria.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=14430&cat=45&page=32&search=&since=0&status=&title=
Congratulations on a rare and unusual helmet. Excellent find.
John :bravo:
Nice find, this is a rather hard to find helmet, that is still on my hit list.
John is right on and mentioned a couple references that talk a little about this type of helmet. There is one more reference that shows numerous pictures of this type and a little text about it. Page 328 of "The German Army In the First World War uniforms and Equipment 1914to 1918" by Jurgen Kraus.
I highly recommend all his books, they are expensive and heavy but well worth the price.
The one on Griffin site also appears to be a good one, however, priced very high thus it has been on their website for awhile, IMO.
As with all spiked helmets there are fakes out there, but your looks good to me, and I agree with John, should have small OR Kokarden.
Congrats!
James
John is right on and mentioned a couple references that talk a little about this type of helmet. There is one more reference that shows numerous pictures of this type and a little text about it. Page 328 of "The German Army In the First World War uniforms and Equipment 1914to 1918" by Jurgen Kraus.
I highly recommend all his books, they are expensive and heavy but well worth the price.
The one on Griffin site also appears to be a good one, however, priced very high thus it has been on their website for awhile, IMO.
As with all spiked helmets there are fakes out there, but your looks good to me, and I agree with John, should have small OR Kokarden.
Congrats!
James
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
[/quote]
the helmet is not yet with me, as soon as the helmet comes, I take a few photos.
there is a stamp 8.J.P, as I understand it, the helmet was for Jäger zu Pferde
[/quote]
That is very strange. This is a Kurassier helmet, not JzP.
The 8 JP mark does not match. It must have been misread.
Anxious to see the photos.
John :?
the helmet is not yet with me, as soon as the helmet comes, I take a few photos.
there is a stamp 8.J.P, as I understand it, the helmet was for Jäger zu Pferde
[/quote]
That is very strange. This is a Kurassier helmet, not JzP.
The 8 JP mark does not match. It must have been misread.
Anxious to see the photos.
John :?
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
Stewart's Military Antiques is in Phoenix, where I live. He is a reputable dealer.
That these helmets were issued to the JzP is news to me. I have never heard that before.
Also, the majority of these helmets were stamped out of a single sheet of metal. This one appears to have the lobster tail riveted on.
Very unique, unquestionably original.
What happened to the original Kokarden that were shown in the ad?
John
That these helmets were issued to the JzP is news to me. I have never heard that before.
Also, the majority of these helmets were stamped out of a single sheet of metal. This one appears to have the lobster tail riveted on.
Very unique, unquestionably original.
What happened to the original Kokarden that were shown in the ad?
John
Larry is a good guy and honest dealer as well as a member of this forum!
I have never heard of or seen a JZP marked Kurassier either, but who knows...
James
I have never heard of or seen a JZP marked Kurassier either, but who knows...
James
Every one of these that I have owned or seen, were marked 8JZP.
No clue why, but I would be very surprised to see one marked to a Kürassier Regt. It seems they were only issued to 8 JzP.
No clue why, but I would be very surprised to see one marked to a Kürassier Regt. It seems they were only issued to 8 JzP.
J.LeBrasseur said:
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
I concur with Tony. I've never owned one yet, but all the examples I have seen over the years that were marked were all marked "8JZP."
These don't turn up very often, and surprisingly there were 3-of them sold in 2018. 2-on auction sites, and 1-on a dealer site. One of them sold very reasonably on auction which I didn't expect, and I've kicked myself for not throwing in a bid on it. I'm guessing that most people had never seen one, and didn't know if it was "real" or not.
Some of these have an integral "stamped out spike base and the 4-rivets" that is made to look like a normal separately attached football shaped spike base.
Best Regards,
Alan
These don't turn up very often, and surprisingly there were 3-of them sold in 2018. 2-on auction sites, and 1-on a dealer site. One of them sold very reasonably on auction which I didn't expect, and I've kicked myself for not throwing in a bid on it. I'm guessing that most people had never seen one, and didn't know if it was "real" or not.
Some of these have an integral "stamped out spike base and the 4-rivets" that is made to look like a normal separately attached football shaped spike base.
Best Regards,
Alan
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
Very interesting. Why would the 8th JzP purposely choose a Kurassier style ersatz helmet?
If they were only issued to the 8th JzP wouldn't it have been just as easy to stamp out a JzP style helmet?
Unless these were in reserve, refurbished, or re-purposed, and nothing else was available it doesn't seem to make sense.
Very curious to learn the answer.
I have only seen two in person and I can't remember if they were stamped or not.
John :?
If they were only issued to the 8th JzP wouldn't it have been just as easy to stamp out a JzP style helmet?
Unless these were in reserve, refurbished, or re-purposed, and nothing else was available it doesn't seem to make sense.
Very curious to learn the answer.
I have only seen two in person and I can't remember if they were stamped or not.
John :?
brusik1
Active member
it may say something
Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 8 from Wikipedia:
" the uniform:
The uniform was modeled after the style of the cuirassiers. The tunic was gray-green with Swedish serves. Collar, cuffs and lugs were light green, while the badge color was white. The buttons were white, boots and leather black. The officer's helmet, as in the case of the cuirassiers, but of blackened tin with dragoon eagle as ornament, border rails, scales, and lace were made of tombak. The team helmet corresponded to the helmet of the Dragoons. (Since not enough cuirassier helmets were available for the formation of regiments 8-13, the conversion was not until 1915.) Dragoon boots were worn. The epaulettes were provided with the regimental number. "
Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 8 from Wikipedia:
" the uniform:
The uniform was modeled after the style of the cuirassiers. The tunic was gray-green with Swedish serves. Collar, cuffs and lugs were light green, while the badge color was white. The buttons were white, boots and leather black. The officer's helmet, as in the case of the cuirassiers, but of blackened tin with dragoon eagle as ornament, border rails, scales, and lace were made of tombak. The team helmet corresponded to the helmet of the Dragoons. (Since not enough cuirassier helmets were available for the formation of regiments 8-13, the conversion was not until 1915.) Dragoon boots were worn. The epaulettes were provided with the regimental number. "
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
brusik1 said:
WOW! I never knew or heard of this before.
So --- If I found a model 1915 Kurassier helmet with an 8 - 13 stamp, it would actually have belonged to a JzP regiment?
I may actually have a JzP helmet that I didn't know about.
Could this possibly explain the (apparently common) use of a regular spike on a Kurassier helmet?
Did the Kurassier helmets ever have the dragoon eagle for JzP or was it always the Kurassier line eagle?
I have lots of questions now!
John
brusik1
Active member
That's why I opened the topic here.SkipperJohn said:brusik1 said:
WOW! I never knew or heard of this before.
So --- If I found a model 1915 Kurassier helmet with an 8 - 13 stamp, it would actually have belonged to a JzP regiment?
I may actually have a JzP helmet that I didn't know about.
Could this possibly explain the (apparently common) use of a regular spike on a Kurassier helmet?
Did the Kurassier helmets ever have the dragoon eagle for JzP or was it always the Kurassier line eagle?
I have lots of questions now!
John
I'm not clear either
SkipperJohn
Well-known member
My understanding is that there were only 8 Kürassier regiments and, other than Kürassier regiment 1, they were all equipped the same. There were some differences in the Kürassier regiment 1 helmet; officer's chinscales, Wappen, etc. but not in basic helmet design.
There were 13 Jäger zu Pferde regiments. JzP 1-7 wore a steel helmet with silver fittings, 8 wore a steel helmet with tombak fittings, and 9-13 wore a leather dragoon helmet.
Tony mentions here (http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/JzP_helme.htm) that ersatz helmets were issued to JzP units as the war progressed and that the ersatz helmet was made of a single piece of pressed metal. I had no idea that it was a Kürassier design and not a JzP design. I know that Kürassier style helmets for JzP officers were commonly in use, but not for enlisted troops.
Every time that I have seen one of these helmets, in person, in books, on the internet, and advertised for sale, it was said to be a Kürassier helmet.
My curiosity is really peaked with this one.
John :?
There were 13 Jäger zu Pferde regiments. JzP 1-7 wore a steel helmet with silver fittings, 8 wore a steel helmet with tombak fittings, and 9-13 wore a leather dragoon helmet.
Tony mentions here (http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/JzP_helme.htm) that ersatz helmets were issued to JzP units as the war progressed and that the ersatz helmet was made of a single piece of pressed metal. I had no idea that it was a Kürassier design and not a JzP design. I know that Kürassier style helmets for JzP officers were commonly in use, but not for enlisted troops.
Every time that I have seen one of these helmets, in person, in books, on the internet, and advertised for sale, it was said to be a Kürassier helmet.
My curiosity is really peaked with this one.
John :?
