Neckflap helmet on Weitzes site

R

Robert

New member
Weitze has a helmet that is referred to as a serbian campain helmet. As it is so closely related to the scroll helmets that we discussed a while back I wonder what you think of this one (no fear I wont buy it :wink: ).
Does anyone have the reference book he mentions (Die Deutsche Armee im 1. Weltkrieg, page 71)? The neck part does not match the better GMGA pictures we have which show a white thin material but nevertheless the whole helmet does not look really bad I guess - except for the very green color on the last pictures of the series.

It is difficult to link to the description, here is one of the pictures.

103554.jpg


The close up of the numbers shows a remarkable simularity to those on my own helmet which I think is a fake. Note the fine line pattern. I am loading my camera batteries so I might post a close up of mine later.

103554_2.jpg


P.S. I linked to his pictures and did not copy them so I hope this is OK.
 
The reference given is Jurgen Kraus' The German Army in the First World war", p 71. The one pictured in there is similar but soiled. 205 is painted in pale green high characters on the front; there is a leather-like rim lining the front visor. I do not know much myself about these helmets. Weitze usually provides many pictures of each item he has for sale. I will take a look.
Bruno
 
Robert good find!

I took a hard look at this. I could find nothing associated with Macedonia and the numbers 88.
That doesn't mean it doesn't exist just that I could not find it. So in my mind the proof of existence is on Weitze. I do not have that source and would love to see it. The helmet shell is original I think but the numbers do not make sense for Macedonia and the Nackenshutz is reminiscent of a similar one used on fire helmets.

Can we see how your numbers are attached? What were the items that made you think yours was a fake? This is really interesting!

And yes there is no photo evidence of this that I'm aware of.
 
Bruno you posted while I was writing!

If he is talking about Kraus they are not the same. The example shown in Kraus of the 205th Pioneer Company with a Nackenshutz but no Wappen at all and the numbers painted on the helmet was assigned to the 103rd Infantry Division during the Serbian campaign.
 
> Can we see how your numbers are attached? What were the items that made you think yours was a fake?

Shure, this is the reverse side. I hope you can see - these are bent iron clips.

gmga206_nummern_rueckseite.jpg


There are many little or larger things that made me think that mine is not good. Most obviously I dont like the stamps. I dont like the liner - normally the inside is brown and only the outside has a black color, not dyied completely black (as on modern leather). The leather of the visors does not look right - it is painted black instead of having the usual coating. The side posts are of gray painted brass. The rear spine is a bit too short leaving a gap to the spike base. And so on..

gmga206_stempel.jpg


gmga206_futter_1.jpg


gmga206_vorne.jpg
 
Too bad the references are so vague. I hoped that the book he mentions would give better hint about this.

Concerning the "2" being a reversed "7" I think this was actually done sometimes to save numbers. But the "6" does not match the "20" because it lacks the fine line pattern.

This is an enlarged period photograph. Its the neckflap on the GMGA 247 picture.

gmga_247_33s.jpg
 
Thank you Robert! 206???
The only ones with numbers or scrolls I thought were Gebirgs Maschinengewehr Abteilung 211 through 250.

Flashart -- Mike has one Nackenshutz that I think is good. The strap is leather I think but it is very light similar to the pictures. The Nackenshutz itself is much shorter than the example in Weitze.
kratzen.jpg
 
Sorry for the late replay, had to guard the maypole :guns:

I am not shure about the unit number 206 at all. I find it in a short incomplete unit overview but whithout any references (Auxillary units). Normally I thought the lowest GMGA number was 210, established in Oct 1915 (Reichsarchiv no. 5).

I was wondering about the numbers in general. Überzug numbers were longe gone and then by the end of 1915 they were used by newly equipped units again.
I suppose the reason is the mixed consistency of the balkan forces and the speciality role of the GMGA. Many different units were combined producing quite a confusion. To make things worse, the GMGA was evidently used as a mobile unit that could me moved around quickly. So maybe it was thought that the posibility to identify these units by helmet numbers provided the enemy with little relevant information but would make life easier for local commanders. Do you have a theory about the numbers?

BTW, here is my neckflap. Same stamp as on the helmet.

neck_flap.jpg
 
(Reichsarchiv no. 5)
Click to expand...

I recently received the entire set all 36 or 38 volumes of the green books but I have not unpacked them yet. I have never heard of 206. I did see a shoulder strap however, that had a seven that looked exactly like your two turned upside down like R1 said.

Do you have a theory about the numbers?
Click to expand...
My theory is about the entire helmet -- as many of these have a production hole on the left-hand side that is not covered by the scroll I think these were left over helmets and someone came along with a great idea to save metal on the Wappen. No proof just theory.

I like your Nackenshutz I just don't like the markings.
 
I recently received the entire set
Click to expand...
Wow that ought to be enought for the weekend! The Jildirim volume should be quite interesting too!

I just cannot believe that new frontline units would receive ersatz leftovers by the end 1915/begin 1916 just for the savings. Should they not get M1915 models and the felt be moved to the rear units? That makes me think there was SOME sort of intention. The helmet plates are also standardized over a large range of GMGA units (212 to 250 according to the article, and thus even across state borders). At least I would think that felt was selected intentionally because of climate/weight considerations. And maybe the numbers had some reason too, it seems that making new plates and even individual ones for each unit is a lot of work.

Of course, this might be just wishful thinking.
 
Robert said:
// I just cannot believe that new frontline units would receive ersatz leftovers by the end 1915/begin 1916 just for the savings. Should they not get M1915 models and the felt be moved to the rear units?
Click to expand...
Robert, the M1915 pattern was introduced on 28 June 1915, with Bayern (Bavaria) also adopting the pattern on 11 Nov 1915. However, that is just the AKO. It would take months or in some cases, years to ramp up production. I wrote a little article HERE that discusses that when an AKO came out, it often took a very long time for the old models to be replaced. I would love to find out when the first grey M15 was placed on a soldier's head, I will guess it was very late in 1915. Or.... perhaps 1916??
 
Thanks for the link, that is an interesting article. I did quite a search but there does not seem to be ANY literature related to the GMGA. There is quite a lot about Gebirgs Artillerie Abteilungen, normal MG Abteilungen, even some unit histories of Sharpshooter MG Abteilungen.
But not one #* GMGA book. I went ahead and lent "Die Württ. Gebirgs- und Sturmtruppen im Weltkrieg" online, maybe there is some side info on the GMGA 250.
 
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