Need Help Identifying my new find: Sword and Bayonet.

C

cpo

New member
Hi All,

Please help me to identify a new acquisition. I am trying to narrow down the country of origin, the approximate year of manufacture, and what unit it was carried by.

It is a Short Sword in a Wooden Scabbard with a Bayonet held by Clamped Brackets attached to the Scabbard.

SHORT SWORD
Blade is straight with pointed tip.
Length of the blade is 480 mm long (approx 18.75")
Blade width at the hilt is 24mm wide.
Hilt is 120mm long.
Overall sword length 600mm.
Blade is etched on both sides and has a crown in the etching.
S-Cross Guard is brass (no markings).
Birdhead-style Pommel
Hilt is Brass, left side smooth, right side 19 oblique grooves
Has Single Edge which is dull, does not appear to me to have ever been sharpened.

BAYONET
M1886 Lebel bayonet With Shortened Cruciform blade.
Hilt/Grips are either Nickel silver or aluminium bronze hilt without quillion.
Blade Length is 340mm
Blade Thickness is 13mm
Overall Length 460mm

SCABBARD
Scabbard is wood which appears to be covered in a coated fabric finish.
Locket is Brass
Chape has been broken off (I do not have it)
There are three brackets.
Bracket 1 is screwed into the Locket and appears to be for attaching a Baldric.
Bracket 2 and 3 are screwed on in a clamp style.
Brackets 2 and 3 are specifically for holding the M1886 Bayonet to the Scabbard.
Bracket 2 has the number 0147 stamped into it.
Bracket 3 has a brass ring attached.


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This should help

The Forgotten Faschinenmesser

The Faschinenmesser (Fascine Knife) is a metal handled short sword issued to foot troops to be used as a tool for fortification construction, or last ditch personal weapon for protection. The practice of an Infantry edged weapon (beyond the issue socket bayonet) dates back at least to the early...
www.pickelhaubes.com
 
The brass handled one is German pre WW1 and the other is French. Why they have been put together with this special scabbard adaptation, I have no clue.
 
I believe that both bayonet and shortsword have been inserted into the scabbard for a russian Shashqua, pictured below. all components seem perfectly real - they just don't go together!
Steveindex.jpg
 
Also the french bayonet is a Rosalind bayonet, A Lebel looks like this. My blade is shorter than the usual because it was cut down for frontline use in WW1
 

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Well spotted Louis, I missed the Lebel part of the description. Should be a Moisin bayonet in that scabbard - but not much use without the Shashqua! Thanks Coert, seems all those years spent scanning tables at Arms Fairs was not as wasted as my wife thought! HAH! If only I knew as much about Haubes,...
Steve
 
Louis said:
Also the french bayonet is a Rosalind bayonet, A Lebel looks like this. My blade is shorter than the usual because it was cut down for frontline use in WW1
Click to expand...
Louis, was there a French bayonet named Rosalind? I am asking because the Lebel bayonet in WW1 was named "Rosalie". No actual maker name though: it was an affectionate nickname used by pioupious (slang for infantrymen). Rosalie is a female first name. Coincidence?
 
Sorry I completely missed the mark, mine is a Gras bayonet and his is correctly named lebel bayonet. Sorry about the confusion, haven’t had my morning coffee yet:D
 
911car said:
Louis, was there a French bayonet named Rosalind? I am asking because the Lebel bayonet in WW1 was named "Rosalie". No actual maker name though: it was an affectionate nickname used by pioupious (slang for infantrymen). Rosalie is a female first name. Coincidence?
Click to expand...
The French infantry men were commonly called Poilu. Translated as the hairy men. The bayonet pictured is indeed a Lebel bayonet, with the nickname Rosalie..
 
Louis said:
Sorry I completely missed the mark, mine is a Gras bayonet and his is correctly named lebel bayonet. Sorry about the confusion, haven’t had my morning coffee yet:D
Click to expand...
Thank you for the clarification. I know nothing about bayonets. Always happy to learn something...
 
coert65 said:
The French infantry men were commonly called Poilu. Translated as the hairy men. The bayonet pictured is indeed a Lebel bayonet, with the nickname Rosalie..
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right, Coert, but "pioupiou" came first, in the 19th century, to name a (usually young) infantryman. The word refers to the sound emitted by a chick. Pioupiou was still used in WW1 but the nuance is slightly different: it is a slang word, that can be taken as slightly derogatory, like "bidasse" or "troufion", also commonly used to name soldiers in French. Conversely, "poilu" is not slang; it is a familiar word used with a nuance of respect.
 
Just finishing up my third reading of Poilu the WW1 memoir of Cpl Louis Barthas. He uses the term Rosalie in describing the bayonet several times.
 
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