New "schirmmuetze": Opinions and thoughts welcome!

C

Carlson

New member
Got this off ebay, and I have the funny feeling that this one didn't begin its life as a schirmmuetze, given its shape, the width of the band, and especially the lining without the ersatz or leather headband. The visor is quite stiff

What do you all think?

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The lining has 2 stamps, a size 56 and, I think, an illegible unit stamp. The cokards are behind the sewn in liner.

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I'd appreciate your thoughts. 1) Originally a schirmmuetze? 2) If the visor was added, was this kind of thing done during the war? The visor seems quite old.

David
 
Here's the best I can do. Stiching hard to see from the liner side, but you can see stiching just above the band on the outside.

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I have seen similar hats over the years, feldmutze with a visor added, which were absolutely original. So yes, it is something the Germans did. Whether this one is original, I wouldn't venture to say without handling it, and maybe not even then. I like the visor and lining, but the hat does look kind of "fresh". Steve
 
What troubles me, in addition to the fore mentioned concerns, is the Feldmütze having officer two piece Kokarden. Despite wartime hardship, I question whether a Feldwebel, let alone an officer, would be reduced to wearing something like this.

David, you can purchase a black light bulb just about anywhere and use it in a table lamp to perform the test.

Despite my concerns, the cap is an interesting subject. Württemberg, too.

Chas.
 
Thanks to all for the comments so far! I agree that it is interesting, Chas. And the discussion is what makes this forum so valuable.

As for the "freshness" of the cap, that's as much due to my flash as anything. The wool does look a little "fuzzy," but there's quite a bit of nap wear and moth tracking, too.

Next step, black light. But I still have a feeling I may have a "parts" schirmmuetze!

I'd love to hear more ideas here. Thanks again.

David
 
Hi Dave,

There is no stifferner to the cap sides, right? I suppose you could have an issued M10 Schirmmütze with soft sides, but usually they are built like a Schirmmütze with carboard sides. Every one I have seen or owned did not look like a Krätzchen. This looks like a Krätzchen unfortunately.
 
Hi, Tony:

No stiffener. And I have no doubts that it is a Kraetzchen with a visor added.

But here's the kicker. It passes the black light test. I spent some time comparing the stitching with my wife's sewing thread under black light, and the difference is dramatic.

So . . . I think . . . I've got a kraetzchen with a visor sewn on, but it was sewn on a long time ago.

What the heck?

Steve . . . if you can add anything to what you wrote earlier (or even pictures) about the Germans adding visors, I'd love to hear or see it.

Tony . . . any more thoughts?
 
Hey Dave,
It is fairly sure that it is not a studio costume house modifacation, as the costume houses usually marked them as their property.
Gus
 
Steve . . . if you can add anything to what you wrote earlier (or even pictures) about the Germans adding visors, I'd love to hear or see it.
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David,
Unfortunately I don't have any pics. The first one I saw was back in the 70's, I bought a doughboy lot from an estate and there was one in the souveniers. It was in pretty ratty condition, the cockades were standard EM, no doubt about what it was - a feldmutze with a visor added. I remember being disappointed because I wanted a regular feldmutze. I never thought it was a very nice looking hat, and parted with it years ago. I've seen a couple since, I guess they are not very common. Somewhere, in one of my books, I've seen a period photograph of one being worn, but I can't remember where. On the one I owned, the visor was just a thick slab of leather. As far as I'm concerned, it's a legitimate period modification. Steve
 
I knew I wasn't imagining things! I found the reference - the encyclopedic The German Army In The First World War by Kraus. On page 122, the M.1908 Peaked Cap for Service Troops. Among other things, Kraus says they were often worn by alpine troops. Steve
 
ottodog8,

You will also notice that Kraus mentions that these caps, were for the most part, not issued to the infantry. Infantry examples are very scarce. This 1908 pattern cap was in production up until October of 1918, so I suppose it is possible that this is an example of late-war wool. It certainly is not early war quality. Also, I don't see any indication of the chinstrap button having been sewn on to the sides. If this started life as a M1908, it would have had a chinstrap. The visor does not appear to be an issue type either, which makes more sense with a private purchase cap.

Like you say, I would not hazard a guess without being able to inspect the cap first hand.

Chip
 
The one I had was infantry, also a late war cap, never had a chinstrap. Some of the guys in the pics in Kraus' book don't have them either. It's the same with schirmmutze, I have never been able to see any rhyme or reason as to whether they have a chinstrap. I have seen both officer and enlisted models with and without them. Steve
 
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