does anyone have an opinon about this, usually Russian miter cap fronts plates had paintings on them, it could be original ive seen earlier Prussian and Hessian miter caps in private collections and Hermann-Historica, but i think they usually go for around 20 to 50 g's. the plates could be original and the body replaced, the lining is correct for that era, or maybe its legit, this seller is a good man.
not Prussian but Russian
- Thread starter Muth25
- Start date
Do you have a listing number?
James
James
joerookery
Well-known member
I had a friend who just spent $45,000 on one.
Zorndorf
New member
Gentlemen, I have been following this auction with some interest as pieces from this era, be they Russian or Prussian, are both rare and decidedly expensive. Brian asked me to comment as I have collected some Russain pieces but they are of the era of Nicholas II. Nevertheless, my interest in the earlier era remains keen but less well informed.
That said, let me make excerpts from my reply to Brian with some updates since last evening's email to him.
Unfortunately, reliable resources in English are not plentiful. Those that I have are somewhat limited in regard to the thoroughness of their treatment of Russian greandier caps of this type. It would appear that the Russian style cap with the boiled leather crown and protruding leather neck protector would be longer lived both in terms of durability and survivability. Complete examples of this type were offered for sale in Munich two years ago.
The "Prussian" style was fairly short lived with the rather singular exception of the Pavlovski Guard Grenadier regiment which wore their bullet ridden caps right up to the onset of WWI as a regimental distinction. This said, a more Russianized style with a boiled leather skull and backing for the mitre plate came into vogue eventually being replaced by the "Potemkin" style of the 1780's.
As regards Tsar Peter III's reign, it was as unusually short, 5 January 1762 to 7 July 1762, as it was unlamented. He was murdered in a palace coup in which his German wife Catherine II was always suspected. The ebay offerer's description of his reign is therefore incorrect when it states he was Tsar for two years. As confirmation, one need only browse any period history or any number of websites for confirmation of the dates of his reign. I cite but one below:
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/hornton/890/PeterIII.html
Also, the mitre caps of grenadier regiments or the grenadiers of a musketeer regiment tended to be made from a finely chased sheet of brass, that was then gilded or silvered depending on the regiment. Therefeore the separate application of the monarch's monogram is a little unusual. One reference cites this as having only been done on officer cap plates. This mitre cap is, however, not officer style or quality.
Examples of typical enlisted mens' plates are illustrated in the special auction catelogue of Hermann Historica München: "Auktion 45, 15 Oktober 2003". Lot 052 is of "A Grenadier cap front plate, 1762". The description from the catelogue is informative and I quote," An extraordinarily rare piece as there can only be very few examples of anything of that kind remaining from the reign of Czar Peter, which in part is due to the fact that all such pieces were immediately replaced by ones bearing the monogram of the new Czarina". The Tsarina in question is Catherine II, the Great, 1762 - 1796. The starting price for the cap plate alone was 5,000 Euros or roughly $9,000 in 2003 dollars. So, it would appear that this is decidedly undervalued or ....
This same catelogue lists several Prusssian and Russian caps which are in the main complete. The initial asking price was 20,000 Euros. While I do not have handy the prices realized, this pricing would be more consistent with the comment by joerookery.
I have purchased Russian language texts on uniforms and headgear from this dealer and have nothing but positive comments. My two dealings with him have always been polite and businesslike. I believe him to be well informed on Tsarist headgear as he correctly put to rest a question I had regarding the double headed eagle plate on a Semonovsky Guard Kiwer that pre-dated 1912. In that year the Guard Star first came into general usage and effectively replaced the Romanoff eagle with certain few regimental excepions such as the Guard Uhlans. A well respected collector in Arizona, who himself acquired the bulk of the Andrew Mollo Tsarist militaria collection as illustrated in the book "Military Fashion", with whom I corresponded was less precise on this point. So, it is safe to say that the subject of Tsarist militaria is fraught with pitfalls and uncertainties even when dealing with highly reputable collectors and retailers. My own, financially painful, experience is that one desperately wants it to be what it is represented as being despite the improbabilities.
One final word, if you are still with me, and that comes from another dealer whose website www.RomanovRussia.com is filled with the rare and exotic. In a phone discussion that he and I had he related that Tsarist militaria which was once illegal to have in one's home as there were prominent town wide "eagle burnings" after the Revolution aimed at purging the country of the last reminders of the Romanoffs, had been replaced by an eagerness for these selfsame artifacts in the post Soviet economy. People wanted to recapture some portion of their bureid heritage where such objects still existed. This meant that a pair of general's "pogony" or shoulder boards in excellent condition that commanded $1,500 or more in Russia would have to be sold for more than twice that in the US to make it profitable to transport them and sell them here when there is a ready made market at home. At the highest end there will always be buyers. The aforementioned Pavlovski mitre caps in the officer version start, where they are available at all, in the $35,000 range and easily rise to $50,000 due to their rarity. So, that said, what is the current market value of an original mitre cap from the short reign of Tsar Peter III? I for one do not honestly know as this would be the first I have seen.
Bill H
That said, let me make excerpts from my reply to Brian with some updates since last evening's email to him.
Unfortunately, reliable resources in English are not plentiful. Those that I have are somewhat limited in regard to the thoroughness of their treatment of Russian greandier caps of this type. It would appear that the Russian style cap with the boiled leather crown and protruding leather neck protector would be longer lived both in terms of durability and survivability. Complete examples of this type were offered for sale in Munich two years ago.
The "Prussian" style was fairly short lived with the rather singular exception of the Pavlovski Guard Grenadier regiment which wore their bullet ridden caps right up to the onset of WWI as a regimental distinction. This said, a more Russianized style with a boiled leather skull and backing for the mitre plate came into vogue eventually being replaced by the "Potemkin" style of the 1780's.
As regards Tsar Peter III's reign, it was as unusually short, 5 January 1762 to 7 July 1762, as it was unlamented. He was murdered in a palace coup in which his German wife Catherine II was always suspected. The ebay offerer's description of his reign is therefore incorrect when it states he was Tsar for two years. As confirmation, one need only browse any period history or any number of websites for confirmation of the dates of his reign. I cite but one below:
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/hornton/890/PeterIII.html
Also, the mitre caps of grenadier regiments or the grenadiers of a musketeer regiment tended to be made from a finely chased sheet of brass, that was then gilded or silvered depending on the regiment. Therefeore the separate application of the monarch's monogram is a little unusual. One reference cites this as having only been done on officer cap plates. This mitre cap is, however, not officer style or quality.
Examples of typical enlisted mens' plates are illustrated in the special auction catelogue of Hermann Historica München: "Auktion 45, 15 Oktober 2003". Lot 052 is of "A Grenadier cap front plate, 1762". The description from the catelogue is informative and I quote," An extraordinarily rare piece as there can only be very few examples of anything of that kind remaining from the reign of Czar Peter, which in part is due to the fact that all such pieces were immediately replaced by ones bearing the monogram of the new Czarina". The Tsarina in question is Catherine II, the Great, 1762 - 1796. The starting price for the cap plate alone was 5,000 Euros or roughly $9,000 in 2003 dollars. So, it would appear that this is decidedly undervalued or ....
This same catelogue lists several Prusssian and Russian caps which are in the main complete. The initial asking price was 20,000 Euros. While I do not have handy the prices realized, this pricing would be more consistent with the comment by joerookery.
I have purchased Russian language texts on uniforms and headgear from this dealer and have nothing but positive comments. My two dealings with him have always been polite and businesslike. I believe him to be well informed on Tsarist headgear as he correctly put to rest a question I had regarding the double headed eagle plate on a Semonovsky Guard Kiwer that pre-dated 1912. In that year the Guard Star first came into general usage and effectively replaced the Romanoff eagle with certain few regimental excepions such as the Guard Uhlans. A well respected collector in Arizona, who himself acquired the bulk of the Andrew Mollo Tsarist militaria collection as illustrated in the book "Military Fashion", with whom I corresponded was less precise on this point. So, it is safe to say that the subject of Tsarist militaria is fraught with pitfalls and uncertainties even when dealing with highly reputable collectors and retailers. My own, financially painful, experience is that one desperately wants it to be what it is represented as being despite the improbabilities.
One final word, if you are still with me, and that comes from another dealer whose website www.RomanovRussia.com is filled with the rare and exotic. In a phone discussion that he and I had he related that Tsarist militaria which was once illegal to have in one's home as there were prominent town wide "eagle burnings" after the Revolution aimed at purging the country of the last reminders of the Romanoffs, had been replaced by an eagerness for these selfsame artifacts in the post Soviet economy. People wanted to recapture some portion of their bureid heritage where such objects still existed. This meant that a pair of general's "pogony" or shoulder boards in excellent condition that commanded $1,500 or more in Russia would have to be sold for more than twice that in the US to make it profitable to transport them and sell them here when there is a ready made market at home. At the highest end there will always be buyers. The aforementioned Pavlovski mitre caps in the officer version start, where they are available at all, in the $35,000 range and easily rise to $50,000 due to their rarity. So, that said, what is the current market value of an original mitre cap from the short reign of Tsar Peter III? I for one do not honestly know as this would be the first I have seen.
Bill H
Zorndorf said:
Hi Bill,
Thank you very much for the excellent explanation. You helped me to think a little more deeply (I was never interested too much regarding Tzarists goods), you were necessaryand did that I had my opinion regarding the mitre.
Even if I had money remaining, I would not buy her.
Otto
Doc_Holliday
Member
I would stay away from this dealer tsars_arsenal2!! He is a cheater. Once i bought a an russian shako from him in a private deal. He told me if it was not original I could return it right away. I payed 2500$ and got the item. It was very easy to see that the shako was made of several other items. I told him that I want to return it!! No way he said, this item is origimal!! What can you do then!!??
Try to read his return policy!!!!!!! You must be 1000% sure that the item is original before you bid. THIS CHEATER WILL NOT LET YOU RETURN IT!!!!!!!! Be carefull!!!!
Doc_Holliday
Try to read his return policy!!!!!!! You must be 1000% sure that the item is original before you bid. THIS CHEATER WILL NOT LET YOU RETURN IT!!!!!!!! Be carefull!!!!
Doc_Holliday
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hello Doc:
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully, the warning will prevent the same from happening again.
Regards,
Chas.
Welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully, the warning will prevent the same from happening again.
Regards,
Chas.
Zorndorf
New member
Gentlemen:
Life sometimes has an odd serendipity to it. In my previous post I had made mention of a mitre cap from the Pavloski Grenadier regiment and what do I found today entered for sale by Tsar's Arsenal? You guessed it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-RUSSIAN-IMPERIAL-ARMY-ELITE-UNIFORM-HELMET-MITRE_W0QQitemZ6598550882QQcategoryZ13968QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It is certainly worth a look. I find that the photos do add to one's understanding. I will now have to compare those posted on ebay with photos I took at The Belgian Army Musuem in Brussels where they opened a Tsarist gallery in either 2003 or 2004. I was told that Premier Putin attended the opening because of the importance of the collection. I have no doubt about the latter. If you are in Brussels I cannot recommend a visit more highly. It rates right up there with the Bavarian Army Museum in Indolstadt and the Wehgeshichtliches Museum in Rastatt. The latter two collections form the nucleus of illustrations for Juergen Klaus' excellent, The German Army in the First World War as published by Verlag militaria. I have provided a link below. In my humble opinion the books from this publisher are a real contribution to the field and their physical quality, paper, color plates etc. is exceptional.
http://www.militaria.at/neu/indexengl.htm
I am amazed at how this stuff just keeps turning up. I will be interested to see what this mitre cap realizes.
Best regards to all.
Bill H
Life sometimes has an odd serendipity to it. In my previous post I had made mention of a mitre cap from the Pavloski Grenadier regiment and what do I found today entered for sale by Tsar's Arsenal? You guessed it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-RUSSIAN-IMPERIAL-ARMY-ELITE-UNIFORM-HELMET-MITRE_W0QQitemZ6598550882QQcategoryZ13968QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It is certainly worth a look. I find that the photos do add to one's understanding. I will now have to compare those posted on ebay with photos I took at The Belgian Army Musuem in Brussels where they opened a Tsarist gallery in either 2003 or 2004. I was told that Premier Putin attended the opening because of the importance of the collection. I have no doubt about the latter. If you are in Brussels I cannot recommend a visit more highly. It rates right up there with the Bavarian Army Museum in Indolstadt and the Wehgeshichtliches Museum in Rastatt. The latter two collections form the nucleus of illustrations for Juergen Klaus' excellent, The German Army in the First World War as published by Verlag militaria. I have provided a link below. In my humble opinion the books from this publisher are a real contribution to the field and their physical quality, paper, color plates etc. is exceptional.
http://www.militaria.at/neu/indexengl.htm
I am amazed at how this stuff just keeps turning up. I will be interested to see what this mitre cap realizes.
Best regards to all.
Bill H