PLM Grouping

kaiserzeit

New member
Hello,

I have been offered a PLM grouping (PLM, EK1, EK2 and an Imperial German Army Airship Pilot's badge). The PLM, EK1 and Airship Pilot's badge are engraved to a Lt. P. Rieper. The engraving is in the old style, hand done, and has the right "look." There is no paperwork, though.

The PLM is the centrepiece of the grouping. What do you think based on the attached photos?

Thank you for your help.

Cheers,

Laurie
plm-obv1.jpg

plm-obv3.jpg

plm-rev1.jpg

plm-detail1.jpg

plm-detail2.jpg

plm-claspmark2.jpg

plm-hangermark.jpg
 

Rendsburg

New member
Hi Laurie,
Rieper was a baloon pilot. Ltn.d.R. Peter Rieper served with Balloon Zug 19 from at least (Oct15) until 3Jul18 when he was WIA. He was shot down by MdL Cardon, Spa 81.
For the originality of the PLM, I think Chas and Tony could help you. Can we see the others items?
Otto
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi Laurie:

It has become fashionable within the past year for PLM groupings to appear attributed to aces of the air or the deep. These often include both classes of Iron Cross and a pilot or sub badge.

The PLM in the photos you posted is a recent Spanish copy that has cropped up regularly on eBay. Some sellers are even going to the trouble of having these engraved. In this instance it would appear that JGuS (Johannes Godet und Sohne) is the attempted target.

This PLM looks nothing like a Godet PLM. It is no more than two years old.

Leutnant der Reserve Peter Rieper earned his PLM on 7 July 1918 and was the only balloon observer to be so decorated. This would be a grouping of tremendous significance if real. However, based on that PLM, the works are as phoney as a three dollar bill.

Chas.
 

kaiserzeit

New member
Hi Charles, Otto,

Now, you have piqued my interest. The "Spanish" copies I have seen previously were of the earlier, pie-wedge suspension rather than the later baroque style.

What attracted me was the very fine cutout work around the eagles. Also, the chasing of the crown and lettering is very carefully executed rather than the slap-dash style of more readily identifiable "Spanish" copies. What diagnostic factors tip the scale for this piece, Charles?

Otto, I'll try and post some pictures of the other pieces, soon.

Thanks, guys for the input. This one may turn into an interesting learning piece.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
kaiserzeit said:
What attracted me was the very fine cutout work around the eagles.
Hi Laurie:

Look again at picture number four (the reverse macro). Whoever voided the bird at 12:00 really did a number on it, nearly drilling the enamel in the process. The equivalent of a book has been written about this exact same specific fake at Wehrmacht Awards. As soon as their site is up again, I will post some links.

Again, the fake stamps on this particular piece are JGuS, 935, and 800 on the hanger. This PLM is completely the wrong style for a Godet PLM. I have also seen this same fake marked W (Johannes Wagner & Sohn). Godet and Wagner PLMs are as different as night and day.

In the 1970s, there were Spanish copies after the Roethe & Neffe PLM (a copy itself). These have the pie-wedge suspension you mentioned.

Bottom line, the eagles are wrong, the lettering is wrong, the enamel is wrong, the hallmarking is wrong, the weave of the ribbon is wrong, and... it's all wrong.

However, for a reproduction it's better than most. I would say it's worth about fifty bucks, tops. Finally, where is it engraved to Lt d R Rieper?

I'll post those links as soon as they're available.

Chas.
 
Anyone seriously contemplating taking the plunge for a PLM should invest in Prussian Blue, A History of the Order Pour le Merite by S.J. Previtera. The book is very expensive, $140+ and covers a very narrow subject, however, it could help one avoid making a very expensive mistake.

Reservist1
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yes, Stephen's reference is far and away the best available. I thoroughly recommend it.

Chas.
 

kaiserzeit

New member
Hi Guys,

Sorry it took me so long. Here are some more pictures to examine.

I don't pretend to be an expert but if these are scamware, they are pretty convincing. Someone has gone to a lot of trouble in their presentation.

Charles, I agree that the cravat is a replacement but I am not sure we can so easily discount the cross itself. Fine hand work of this sort is difficult beyond words. I would be concerned if there weren't imperfections.

Suffice it to say, I am still sitting on the fence.

First off, the whole grouping:

plm-grouping1.jpg


Further shots of the engraving on the PLM:

plm1.jpg


plm2.jpg


plm3.jpg


plm4.jpg


plm5.jpg


plm6.jpg


plm7.jpg


Just to break it up, I'll create separate messages for the EK1 and Balloonist's badge.

Looking forward to your comments.

Cheers,

Laurie
 

kaiserzeit

New member
And here is the Balloonist's badge. I would imagine that these are pretty rare.

zep1.jpg



zep2.jpg



zep3.jpg



zep4.jpg



zep5.jpg



zep6.jpg



zep7.jpg



zep8.jpg


Well, that's about it.

I look forward to your further feedback.

Cheers,

Laurie
 
Hi Laurie: Chas pretty well covered the PLM. The engraving on the EK1 looks like it was done with a panagraph and not very well executed at that. I do not like the airship badge at all. If it were me, I would be keeping my money in my pocket.

Reservist1
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hi Laurie:

Here are three links that should clarify everything:

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140660&highlight=spanish+plm

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138761&highlight=spanish+plm

http://cgi.ebay.ca/WW1-Pour-Le-Merite-Blue-Max-Iron-Cross-Grouping_W0QQitemZ6597209989QQcategoryZ13965QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The PLM is fake, the Army Zeppelin Commemorative is fake, and I don't even like the looks of those Iron Crosses.

Furthermore, Rieper was a balloonist. Observation balloons are not rigid airships. There is no protocol for Rieper to have received a Zeppelin badge.

It's a bunch of s••t with a clever story.

Chas.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
...and here's where you can buy that same PLM for what it actually is, a reproduction. Hire an unscrupulous jeweler to make a few custom flourishes and voilà.

http://www.soldat.com/Juwelier%20Qual%20Repro.htm

Chas.
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
epsomgreen said:
The PLM is fake, the Army Zeppelin Commemorative is fake, and I don't even like the looks of those Iron Crosses. Furthermore, Rieper was a balloonist. Observation balloons are not rigid airships. There is no protocol for Rieper to have received a Zeppelin badge.

As Chas said, read those threads Laurie, then pass. The EK with that pattern of flat pin and rough workmanship is also an accepted fake EK believed to be made in Latvia. Personally, when I read it was attributed to Rieper, I laughed out loud. That would be a world-class documented grouping worth $20+. When I saw the engraved Zeppelin badge, I fell off my chair laughing. Hilarious!!
 

kaiserzeit

New member
Hello Charles,

Thank you for your patience and diligence. I bow to your experience and knowledge.

Devil's Advocacey has its risks. I wasn't sure about the PLM or Zep badge which do look like they have been hand engraved but the EK1's engraving really is nasty.

If you examine the photo, below, you will see an engraving style that is a dead giveaway:

ek1-3.jpg


See how at the end of each linear element, the vertical and horizontal of the "L", the "E's", where you turn the corners on the "P" and "R", there are little round dimples? Those dimples are the product of a rotating graver on a pantograph.

Very distinctive and diagnostic of someone copying engraving from a much larger template. Naughty! Naughty!

Thanks again, Charles.

I hope that this posting saves some of our readers much pain in the future.

Cheers,

Laurie
 

kaiserzeit

New member
Charles,

I had a look at your links and see that all of this is ground well trodden.

This guy is nothing if not persistant.

If you ever come across a guy named Tomas Klimanek, now living in New Westminster, BC, you may want to be cautious of what he offers.

Cheers,

Laurie
 

Rendsburg

New member
Hi Laurie,
I'm not a PLM and badge guy, but I strongly believe in Chas and Tony expertises.
EK's, that I know well (I think). the EKI it's a big fake, and when I see to a grouping atributed to a famous person, I distrust, strongly, when the medals are bad taken care and dusty, this always suggests me an attempt of doing the item old.
Otto :twisted:
 

kaiserzeit

New member
Thank you, Charles, Tony, Otto; your input is really appreciated. No fear, I won't be spending any of my hard-earned on that lot.

Hopefully this thread will stand to help others avoid similar pitfalls.

All the best,

Laurie
 
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