Private purchase or issued artillery Haube?????

argonne

argonne

Well-known member
Hi Fellow collectors!
What´s the matter with this Haube? Privatly purchased (pre 1880 liner pattern , rear spine) for einjährig Freiwilliger or issued helmet ( spike and teller with splint, Knopf 91, eagle with plain crown and metall loops) for enlisted man???
Modern parts helmet or original prussian period haube which could have been re-issued until using new pattern parts on an old helmet body?

Somebody already does have seen this pattern to fix the eagle to the helmet?
Philippe :salute:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140415575117&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
 
Here is another one, this time bavarian, with mixed elements of both Eigentumshelm and issued helmet...? #-o Someone an explanation for this?
http://cgi.ebay.de/pickelhaube-bayern-topstuck-anschauen-/220620506682?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Militaria&hash=item335e01c63a

Philippe :salute:
 
Phillipe,

This subject has caused some emotion in the past. So here is my opinion–and it is opinion only. There are others who completely disagree.

I do not see much of a problem with the combination of issue pieces and private purchase pieces. You could buy helmets that ran the entire gamut from low quality to high-quality. There was an entire type of private purchase helmets known as Diensthelm. These were daily use low quality helmets that often can be easily identified by the leather color underneath the visor. Depending on whom you bought a helmet from would determine how the individual goodness of their helmet would be. One year volunteers would also buy much of their equipment from the unit and that it was possible to have it adjusted with perhaps a new liner.

I have a helmet with the issue marks and a private purchase wappen. I believe it was an add-on–others believe that any mixture of private purchase an issue parts on a helmet represent a parts helmet. This later view has been very adamantly represented here.
 
Can't resist jumping in on this thread. I do not see in either helmet where there is a mix of "issued" and "private purchase" parts. You could absolutely purchase a Pickelhaube from a shop that looked externally like an issued helmet with M91 posts etc, but inside, complete private purchase silk liner etc. . To me, both the links you posted are to private purchase helmets that are in this category. For some reason, Bavarian private purchase examples almost always look issued on the outside, but inside are clearly private purchase.

And as Joe mentioned, as evidence and documentation proves (took me a while to accept this) that clothing items were purchased from units, I therefore have to accept that some parts "could" have been changed. But as a rule, I still think this is 99.9 % post war done by collectors and dealers.
 
Would it not be logical for an E Fw helmet to appear to be issue from the outside? If it was not, it would not be uniform, I can understand officers being able to purchase helmets that look better than the average, but a soldier standing in inspection with his unit should not stand out with a better looking helmet.
Best
Gsu
 
Thank you guys for your opinion.
Tony, the fact that an E Fw could really purchase such a helmet from a shop or the unit was not clear for me till today! I always though "either, or"... Either only complete issue or complete private purchased.

About my first link above (prussian artillery helmet), what are you thinking about the way the eagle is fixed to the helmet body? (brass discs and clips). Did you already ever saw that? Is it contemporary to the helmet? It is clearly to see this helmet has a set of double holes. I know, Joe, this is not always a bad sign :happy7:

How about the chinstrap/chinscales which could correctly fit this Haube?
If I´m right, in the eventuality of a Fußartillerie unit (infantery), a classic leather strap with 1,5mm hook would do it.
But if Feldartillery, only a leather strap with 3mm hook (after 1915) or brass (convex) chinscales M91 (also 3mm thick, till 1915) would fit.
However, I am thinking that this helmet was worn in a Fußartillery unit, because of the inscription on the owner label : "6 (f) Batterie.
Could it be right?
Philippe :salute:
 
argonne said:
Either only complete issue or complete private purchased.
Click to expand...

Unless a helmet is one or the other, I will not consider looking at it. But many private purchase "parts" are the same as issued parts, like spikes, front trim, M91 posts, and even spines with vents. Often you will find a private purchase eagle Wappen that looks issued from the outside, but with screw posts, and the quality is just too good to be a M1891. HERE is an example I have.

argonne said:
About my first link above (prussian artillery helmet), what are you thinking about the way the eagle is fixed to the helmet body? (brass discs and clips).
Click to expand...

That is post war in my opinion.
 
However, I am thinking that this helmet was worn in a Fußartillery unit, because of the inscription on the owner label : "6 (f) Batterie.
Could it be right?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. This is footnote 653 from the Handbook.

(Ortenburg, Waffe und Waffengebrauch im Zeitalter der Millionenheere 1992) pg. 88. In the riding batteries (the word “riding battery” is directly translated from the German word “reitende Batterie” to be distinguished from driving batteries [fahrende Batterie] – the corresponding English phrase would be “battery of horse artillery”) the limbered gun was towed by six horses plus four extra horses having the entire crew of five gunners plus the NCO in command on horseback. In adittion each gun was accompanied by an ammo carriage with another four soldiers running the supply chain between the ammo train and the gun. Driving batteries didn’t have the four extra horses per gun. There three gunners sat on the limber and two gunners on the gun carriage riding with the gun, only the commanding NCO was on horseback. Each horse of a heavier (985 kg) 9 cm gun had to pull approximately 370 kg (share of gun, limber, ammunition, and crew), while in riding batteries with their lighter (895 kg) guns each horse had to pull only about 275 kg. Therefore, the riding batteries – usually one battalion per regiment (at the beginning one battery) – were must faster and could operate with the cavalry.
Click to expand...

Figure 173 shows a picture of that kind of battery.
 
OK Joe, if I understand, the "f" on the label could mean " 6 f(ahrende ) Batterie"?

Philippe :salute:
 
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