PRUSSIAN ARMY VETINARY OFFICERS -- Thoughts
- Thread starter Fergus
- Start date
Hi Fergus,
What is a vetinary officer??..
This looks like a helmet for some officer of the administration, paymaster... could also be a veterinary surgeon.
In any case it is missing the small eagle on the lower part of the eagle plate. Condition is not great at all. Metal parts have been overly polished... these helmets are not rare and not very expensive. The price asked for this one is far too high. My advice should be to wait for a nice and complete one. Such a helmet without the small eagle is really not worth very much!!
Good luck,
Bruno
What is a vetinary officer??..
This looks like a helmet for some officer of the administration, paymaster... could also be a veterinary surgeon.
In any case it is missing the small eagle on the lower part of the eagle plate. Condition is not great at all. Metal parts have been overly polished... these helmets are not rare and not very expensive. The price asked for this one is far too high. My advice should be to wait for a nice and complete one. Such a helmet without the small eagle is really not worth very much!!
Good luck,
Bruno
Fergus, I took the liberty of fixing your posting so the photos would come up. To show a photo, you have to have "
" at the end. You did not, so the photos did not show, so I added the tags for you. Tony
joerookery
Well-known member
Welcome to the forum! My complements for asking a question before you buy -- many people buy first. I have loads of opinions on these helmets...
This is a very tricky area of helmet collecting as well is a very tricky area of understanding. Good solid references are not quite there that I'm aware of part of that is a translation problem but not all of it.
Prior to 1910 there was no such thing as a veterinary officer -- veterinarians were only Beamte or officials. As a result, veterinarians wore Beamte type helmets. Then suddenly in 1910 you had four commissioned officer ranks for veterinarians. These went by contingent and the real catch is not everyone was selected to move from Beamte to officer. So if you had new style "Officer helmets" as shown by tafel number 158 of Das Deutche Heer, you also had Beamte helmets. As far as I know there is no clear delineation of how these all worked at least that is the impression you get from page 446 of Stubbs. Little Eagles, Beamte helmets, Officer helmets... good questions.
There is also an issue of "medical officers". The veterinary officer was considered a medical officer and lumped as such as they were not combatant officers. However, the veterinary system was not part of the medical system. In Cron you regularly find the veterinary stuff underneath the train heading.
So my vote would be buy something less confusing for your first helmet. There is no substitute for having one that you own. And that will lead to a million questions and research. The problem with veterinarians is finding answers.
As an aside, in addition to agreeing with Bruno's comments, I do not like the threaded post on the inside -- seems a bit thin.
This is a very tricky area of helmet collecting as well is a very tricky area of understanding. Good solid references are not quite there that I'm aware of part of that is a translation problem but not all of it.
Prior to 1910 there was no such thing as a veterinary officer -- veterinarians were only Beamte or officials. As a result, veterinarians wore Beamte type helmets. Then suddenly in 1910 you had four commissioned officer ranks for veterinarians. These went by contingent and the real catch is not everyone was selected to move from Beamte to officer. So if you had new style "Officer helmets" as shown by tafel number 158 of Das Deutche Heer, you also had Beamte helmets. As far as I know there is no clear delineation of how these all worked at least that is the impression you get from page 446 of Stubbs. Little Eagles, Beamte helmets, Officer helmets... good questions.
There is also an issue of "medical officers". The veterinary officer was considered a medical officer and lumped as such as they were not combatant officers. However, the veterinary system was not part of the medical system. In Cron you regularly find the veterinary stuff underneath the train heading.
So my vote would be buy something less confusing for your first helmet. There is no substitute for having one that you own. And that will lead to a million questions and research. The problem with veterinarians is finding answers.
As an aside, in addition to agreeing with Bruno's comments, I do not like the threaded post on the inside -- seems a bit thin.
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
Hello Fergus:
I imagine you must be completely baffled after digesting so much information. The first private purchase helmet I ever bought was this military Zahlmeister (paymaster) Pickelhaube. The translation of the word, Beamte, is official, or civil servant.
My appreciation of the subject (vague and probably wrong) is that military Beamter wore infantry style helmets with vaulted chinscales, whereas civilian Beamter wore a dragoon style helmet with squared visor and cruciform spike base. Silver fittings reflect a paymaster Beamte.
From the photo, one can see the small eagle mentioned by Bruno and Joe.
As for the helmet you're contemplating, I, too, would hold out for something better.
Regards,
Chas.
I imagine you must be completely baffled after digesting so much information. The first private purchase helmet I ever bought was this military Zahlmeister (paymaster) Pickelhaube. The translation of the word, Beamte, is official, or civil servant.
My appreciation of the subject (vague and probably wrong) is that military Beamter wore infantry style helmets with vaulted chinscales, whereas civilian Beamter wore a dragoon style helmet with squared visor and cruciform spike base. Silver fittings reflect a paymaster Beamte.
From the photo, one can see the small eagle mentioned by Bruno and Joe.
As for the helmet you're contemplating, I, too, would hold out for something better.
Regards,
Chas.
Fergus said:
Good choice. Please recall my advice from a while back...
12. Avoid like the plague anything missing parts. You buy a helmet missing a specific spike or Wappen, you will go insane trying to find it, and may never find it.
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
I forgot I had this macro of the small Adler Wappen:
The eagle is affixed with two thin, metal prongs that wrap around the tail feathers of the larger Wappen. In the case of a gilt big eagle, the "micro bird" would be silver (something of a needle in a haystack if it's missing).
Chas.
The eagle is affixed with two thin, metal prongs that wrap around the tail feathers of the larger Wappen. In the case of a gilt big eagle, the "micro bird" would be silver (something of a needle in a haystack if it's missing).
Chas.
Question on the Adler Wappen. Having tried to do some research on Tony's site, I have fround no refernces about Adler Wappen.
My best guess is that Preußen infanty regiments do not have a second eagle (adler Wappen) and just administative units have them?
can you throw some light on the subject.
fergus
My best guess is that Preußen infanty regiments do not have a second eagle (adler Wappen) and just administative units have them?
can you throw some light on the subject.
fergus
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
Hi Fergus:
You're absolutely correct. One would only find these on civilian and military Beamte helmets.
Chas.
You're absolutely correct. One would only find these on civilian and military Beamte helmets.
Chas.