Prussian Pioneer

mauihiu

mauihiu

Member
This is a helmet I picked up last month. From what I can gather it is a Pioneer helmet with silver chin scales, an associate told me it was for a 1 year volunteer or NCO candidate? Spike seems to be longer than normal and is unscewable. There is no bandeau and it has been suggested by Jim Turinetti that perhaps there should be a reservists cross on it. There are no markings inside. Any additional help identifying it would be greatly appreciated.

 
The spike is what I like to call a "fashion" spike, extra tall. The high command actually had to pass regs limiting the height of the officer spike because things got out of hand.
 
Eric,

There are other possibilities. At first look this appears to be an OYV helmet. It could possibly be an officer Wappen purchased in advance with the intent to convert the helmet upon reserve commission. Let's review a couple of simple ideas. Military helmets were supposed to have motto in most cases. For the active forces in Prussia this was on the Eagle.

Wappen_28.gif


For the reserve forces it was on the cross.

Wappen_31.gif


For officers there was a third kind of Eagle specifically for the reserve forces – it had a big FR on the chest.

Wappen_30.gif


If indeed this was a one-year volunteer anticipating being commissioned in the reserves he might use this unorthodox wappen intending to put the cross on it when he was commissioned.

The only other group that used the FR type Eagle were Beamte. They did not use a cross.
More pictures would be great – especially behind the helmet plate to see if there are double holes. My money would be on this being for a Beamte.The small eagle on the helmet plate was not authorized until the AKO of 15 May 1905. Prior to that, it is much harder to identify a Beamte.
Wappen_29.gif


Has anyone mentioned that the scepter is mostly missing?
 
I'll throw my two cents in here. I have a question. If it's a Pioneer, why silver chin scales? Is there a regiment that I'm unfamiliar with that had silver?
My thought is that this is a Zahlmeister helmet missing the smaller eagle and with the gold star retainers for the base replaced by silver round domes. I say this because the scales look to be convex (actually, they look more convex on the left than on the right) and there is no bandeau on the wappen, which would be correct for a Zahlmeister.
All in all, a pretty nice helmet IMHO that needs some star studs and the little eagle if one turns up. Of course, I may be totally wrong (again).. :)

:D Ron
 
I would dare to say it's an Unterzahlmeister and then you can leave the helmet as it is... I might be wrong too of course :-" ...

Adler
 
Adler said:
I would dare to say it's an Unterzahlmeister and then you can leave the helmet as it is... I might be wrong too of course :-" ...

Adler
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:-k :-k I never thought of that! See, shows you what I know! So, the domed retainers would be silver, rather than brass in that case, correct? (this is a good time to realize that my 'sig tag' isn't lying, I do need to know more about this stuff. )

:D Ron
 
Interesting helmet and lovely topic as several good ideas have been put forward :D

Thanks for sharing!

Regards,

Edwin
 
poniatowski said:
Hey WWI, would it still be missing the smaller eagle?
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Ron I did not know, so I emailed New Brunswick and he replied.

Tom,
I can see where an inexperienced collector might have thought this was Pionier, but the silver chinscales are a dead give away that it is not. All Beamte in silver fittings appear to have worn a wee Preußen Adler Wappen in the opposing colour on the tail feathers, except Unterapotheker. However, Unterapotheker wore cruciform spike base and front vice with silver chinscales. This helmet you pointed me towards, has round spike base and visor with silver chinscales (I vote convex as well) so I agree with Joe, Karel, Ron that it is probably (?) a Beamte Unterzahlmeister missing the wee gilt Adler. It would be interesting to see if there were solder remnants on the reverse of the Preußen eagle Wappen tail feathers where it was. Regardless, it is a beautiful helmet and who knows, the owner might get lucky some day and find the wee Beamte Adler in gilt. Slim chance, but never say never. And yes you can copy this into your posting if you wish. No matter to me. And yes in response to your question I might come back to the Forum later this year. We shall see. Tony
 
Thanks for that! I figured that the motto had to be someplace on the plate (on the small eagle's bandeau even though it's too small to read!).

:D Ron
 
When the helmet was used before 15 May1905 there was no little beamte eagle according the above tekst from Joe :-k ...

Adler
 
Good to know that Tony may be coming back to us. The infamous "wee eagle" in question:


Unfortunately missing its "wee orb".


A nice set of "wee prongs" on the back though. :D
I have had this amongst my parts for years, can't even remember where it came from.
 
Adler said:
When the helmet was used before 15 May1905 there was no little beamte eagle according the above tekst from Joe :-k ...

Adler
Click to expand...

Very interesting! (again, see 'sig' line)

:D Ron
 
Here is either more clarification or confusion. This is a very very big subject and I think probably the guy with the most knowledge is Glenn.

Zahlmeister by joerookery, on Flickr

Zahlmester and Oberzahlmeister wore infantry pattern helmets with entirely silver fittings. The chinscales were convex. The crown on the wappen was voided. They had pearl rings, star brads, and a rounded spike base. Officer cockades of 55mm were used. The spike did not unscrew as no trichter was allowed. They were what you would consider officer pattern with the “Mitt Gott für Koenig und Vaterland” bandeau.

From 15/5/1904 (No I do not know if it was 04 or 05 and I am too lazy to look it up.) there was a small eagle called a Beamtenadler placed in gilt color under the FR of the eagle. This was a perfect miniature eagle for a standard Beamte wappen with an FR on the chest but no bandeau.

Unterzahlmeister wore the identical helmet but with dome studs, no small Beamte adler, and enlisted 48mm cockades. All Zahlmeister helmets should have been of the private purchase variety however issue type liners have been found in both types of zahlmeister helmets..

ps3355 by joerookery, on Flickr
 
joerookery said:
Here is either more clarification or confusion.
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Clariification. Like always Joe.

I did not know about the pre-May 1905 no wee Beamte Adler on the Preußen Wappen. Very cool.... Thank you. T
 
You guys sure are a fantastic group of scholars! =D>

The wealth of knowledge that is shared here so unselfishly is simply staggering! Thank you! :bravo: :salute:

Best Regards,

Alan
 
You guys sure are a fantastic group of scholars! =D>
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And I thought we just drink too much! :thumb up:

While I thank both of you for your kindness I had to share this that I got from a Flickr friend.

Zahlmeister without the umlaut is the correct title. A Zahlmeister is a pay master, whereas a Zählmaster would be the Count from Sesame Street. ;-)
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