Reworked 1891? Prussian Pickelhaube

J

Jim Newman

New member
Kind of rough shape but wondering what you think this is.

Based on the 1891 mark, combined with the extra holes and the silver parts I am guessing this is a 1891 manufactured helmet that was retrofitted, thus the extra holes (see I am learning).

Any idea on the unit mark? I looked at the regimental markings post but at this point am unable to figure it out.

Jim
 
Looks like originally it was issued to field artillery regiment 23. There appears to be ink stamped marks on the visor that can't be read in the photos, they may say more about its reissue.
What size is this helmet? The wappen appears to be really large on it. I don't recall seeing one where the crown is almost touching the spike.
 
Indeed extra holes. I doubt these were punched in the Regimental Kammer (Quarter Master warehouse) !
FA 23: Feld Artillerie Regiment 23
(2.Rheinisches Feldartillerie Regiment)
2nd Battalion
Garnitur II (means condition)

I can be on the wrong track of course....

But: you have a spike instead of the Kugel (Ball top)....deuuuuuuuu.....Does the spike unscrew (bayonet fitting) ??? ....

Difficult to see: grey (painted or chemicaly processed) or "white metal/silver"....

Have a look at the reverse side of the leather liner...perhaps you find some extra stamps....

Francis
 
Yes, interesting. FA would be an artillery unit, which would mean a Kuegel or ball, rather than a spike. I see some inked marks on the neck guard, can you read those? They might point to a unit that used this after the artillery. All of the fittings look to be for a model 1915 "Gray Trim" helmet. Unless there are some markings for a Pioneer Battalion, I would guess that somebody removed the gray paint from them. It also looks like the helmet was oiled or waxed inside, is that right? This can cause problems later on.
Does the wappen fit into the grommets or the extra holes?

:D Ron
 
Looks like we were all typing at the same time!

Another point might be that the spike appears to be a slightly different color than the base, which might indicate a Kuegel was in place first. Just a thought.

Also, Jim, do you have a photo with the Wappen removed showing the entire helmet from the front? I'd be interested in seeing that. To me, the plate looks mismatched as well (or the helmet an extremely small size) and I'd like to prove myself wrong.

:D Ron
 
Jim,

Have you read this? It might help.

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/DepotMarks_5_09.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Either way we need your permission to end this picture to the listing. We do not have a FAR 23 marking.
 
Please use the picture for documentation. Yes, I looked at the link, tricky for me right now to figure everything out.

Nothing seemed to be painted, I will need to double check if the spike comes off or not.

The wappen fits into the grommets.

This is one of my friends helmets, maybe 20 years ago or so he bought a big bag of pickelhaubes from a guy that showed up at his house, this is one of those helmets. Unfortunately he stores his stuff in an unheated/uncooled pole barn with a concrete floor and it gets lots of dust and condensation. I noticed the helmets deteriorating so I took a few home, cleaned them up with Connely's leather food for the leather and tooth brush with gun oil for the metal. Hope this isn't too bad of treatment but it just seemed anything was better than nothing.

I will take a picture of the entire front and try to find and read more markings next time up.

Was the helmet originally made in 1891?

Thanks for the info!

Jim
 
Sounds to me like you've done a good job, but if there's no rust, there's no reason to oil fittings. If there was rust, then this would be M15 fittings with the paint gone, which is no big deal.

Personally, I never, ever oil, soap or treat the leather inside. This is for several reasons. The chemicals in these treatments are formulated for new leather, rather than that over 100 years old. If the treatment soaks trough to the lacquer, it can cause problems and some treatments will actually damage old leather.
Much of the time, I just dust off my new acquisitions and keep them in a place where I can monitor humidity. For example, I bought a Bavarian enlisted helmet with red-rot to the neck guard edges. I didn't try to fix it, but put it in a place where I know the humidity is good. This little area did nothing to detract from the overall appeal of an otherwise 100% nice helmet.

I think there are guys here doing this regarding your friend's storage techniques: ](*,) If I had a friend doing that, I'd give him a firm, 'preserve them or get rid ofl them' speech. Many people think that these artifacts belong to them, when they actually don't. If they belong to anybody, they belong to their long dead initial owners. We're just fortunate enough to have them and preserve them for future generations. We're well past the time of looking at these as something grandpa brought back, that the kids can play with or can be left to rot. To me, this is like a firearm collector who stores rare weapons in a musty basement and just ignores the rust starting to bite the metal.

So, keep up the preservation and maybe present your friend with a convincing argument to take care of those helmets that he's slowly killing.

:D Ron
 
With an 1891 date on it and the FA 23 markings this is obviously started life as a piece with brass fittings. Prior to the war, there is no foot arty regiment higher than #20 so it is field arty #23. It was then converted to an M15 with grey fittings. This was done to many helmets. Why? Because brass was too shiny and gave one's position away and you had to wear an uberzug but primarily there was a brass shortage so they took off the brass fittings and melted them down for shell casings. Often times, they even took out the original brass grommets in the wappen holes as well. So on the converted M15's you will find extra holes behind the wappen. Sometime there is only one set of holes with no grommets because they took out the brass ones. A warning to new collectors....brass grommets with grey fittings is ok, they converted the piece but left the grommets in. However,....steel grommets with brass fittings...not cool because someone, probably a dealer has put brass fittings on to increase the value of the helmet for sales purposes.
I guess we have ID'd 2 types of M 15's here, those that were converted from M 95's and those helmets that were originally factory made M 15's.
 
Appreciate the info, I store all my helmets (other than those currently on display in the front room or dining area) on wire racks above the clothes in my bedroom walk in closet. My thoughts are no sunlight and great humidity/temperature control.

I will get more info in a week or two.

Thanks guys.
Jim
 
Yes no sun and at least in winter, a humidified atmosphere. There is a great article on "The Kaisers Bunker" about the dangers of humidity and light. Years ago, Tony took a museum curator course so he knows what he is talking about!
 
Jim Newman said:
Appreciate the info, I store all my helmets (other than those currently on display in the front room or dining area) on wire racks above the clothes in my bedroom walk in closet. My thoughts are no sunlight and great humidity/temperature control.

I will get more info in a week or two.

Thanks guys.
Jim
Click to expand...


:thumb up:

:D Ron
 
Put up a few more pictures.

The first two letters of the ink stamp are hard to read but the rest are easy. SO, maybe WS A. B. 88

The spike comes off and is painted, the rest of the metal is some kind of chemical plating.

I measured the liner diameter at 102cm.

The two small holes in the front are not used, the crest goes in the grommets.


Any additional info would be great.

Jim
 
Those look like period repairs to me, so an M95, restored, refitted with grey M15 parts and sent back to war.
 
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