Soldered wappens, Good or Bad?

W

weirdpyramid

New member
Soldering...

When is this ok and in what case is it not? I dont really understand why you would soldered a reserve cross onto a helmet, maybe someone can explain? I am interested in purchasing a helmet and the seller has informed me that the reserve cross and star are soldered onto the wappen. can someone explain this?


Pic1


Pic2
 
Seems to me the original owner wouldn't have done this for a couple of reasons. First, it's impossible to disassemble and clean the Wappen and any piece that was damaged in dis-assembly could be purchased again as a replacement.

A later owner (or the original owner after he was done using the helmet) MAY have done this later to keep parts from being lost, but the way the reservist cross is attached looks strange to me. Usually, they're on there pretty firmly without solder. The solder job looks awfully 'dirty' to me as well. Not done by somebody who really knows his stuff. To me, it looks like the reservist cross was originally in the center of the griffin, but was moved down in order to make room for the star... when that was done, during or after service to make the helmet worth more, I don't know, but I would suspect the latter.

I know there are folks here who know MUCH more than I do, so I'm sure they'll help you out!

:D Ron
 
Weird man,

I have seen both ways. If I was pressed I would say the majority have no solder. However, there are a bunch that have solder.

There were three different kinds of people who put these crosses on. Issue crosses which were put on by the people in the Kammer–and there are not a huge number–number two.: Retailers who put them on professionally.: Number three owners who put them on using various methods.

Number one -depended entirely upon who was in charge and what the standard was. For the most part there was no cross.

Number two- these are pretty obvious. Regularly can be told because the different arms are of the same length. Most come without solder. Those that do have it have it placed in two different places. Some solder is found at the hole. Some solder is found at the end of the arm to glue the arm down to the Wappen.

Number three–anything goes. For the most part Baden provides the widest examples. I have examples in my archives that are all over the map depending upon where they decided to mount the cross. The very best examples are on the center of the breast and those have no solder that I have seen. Other examples are put on God knows somewhere else using whatever method comes to hand. While you have not provided enough pictures it should be noted that the Wappen is an active one that has a cross on it. That sounds most like a number three.

It is really good to understand why there would be a cross on the helmet. Did it start out that way? Was it adjusted? Yours seems to have been an adjustment. I hope this helps. God bless.
 
poniatowski said:
To me, it looks like the reservist cross was originally in the center of the griffin, but was moved down in order to make room for the star...
Click to expand...

Yes I thought the same, it looks like the original holes at the breast/chest of the griffon have been enlarged or expanded to place the star. look carefully but it seems that they have been "punched" to expand the hole left side and right side to fit something else of a larger size.

 
joerookery said:
While you have not provided enough pictures it should be noted that the Wappen is an active one that has a cross on it. That sounds most like a number three.
Click to expand...

and..... yessss. why would the "original owner" solder the cross to a active helmet?? sure maybe it could have happened but for me if i owned the helmet it would cause a constant second guessing to the originality of the helmet. Stubbs "Imperial German Military Officers Helmets and Headdress: 1871-1918" page 184 shows a great example of what "should" be correct in the case of this helmet... no motto on the banner. I do acknowledge though, that sometimes these rules didn't always apply. I want this whole wappen configuration to make sense but to me the facts presented just dont add up. Thanks Joe for the reply also, I think i almost own every book from your recommendation list from your website but it goes to show that in my case sometimes it takes more than just the books to figure out a mystery.
 
Good for you! At the end of the day the person who must be satisfied is you!

This is a nice standard Baden reserve officer that is a Diensthelme. This requires some explanation. It is a private purchase helmet that was originally used for a one year volunteer. The helmet was low quality, and much cheaper for everyday use. When the owner of this helmet was on active duty. He wore the wappen without the landwehr cross and maybe dome studs instead of the stars. The underside of visors were not colored in officer style. After taking the tests and training to become a reserve officer the landwehr cross was added and a helmet made to be officer like in all details except underneath the visors.
Click to expand...

It is explainable but what is it that you want to collect? I think you have hit this on the head. Do you want to collect what should be correct or explain why it is not correct? Well said. God bless.
 
Hey Joe

Who are you quoting? The way I have decided to collect is based on quality and certainty. Although the variables of each helmet, regiment and rank can be very fascinating, sometimes when purchasing a helmet for a considerable amount of money one has to be so very sure. I am only sure when i have (A) looked through at least 5-6 reference books(B) looked for help on pickelhaubes.com and (C) checked out references on the web or talked in detail with the dealer. In this case with this 109th Officers Helmet, I havent the right resources available. The helmet is rare and although well documented in most of my books I have not found one picture or reference to the back side of the wappen and its details/features. Many books show you the beauty of the exterior of the helmet in all its sparkle, shine and glory but never the interior of what puts its components together.
 
weirdpyramid said:
poniatowski said:
To me, it looks like the reservist cross was originally in the center of the griffin, but was moved down in order to make room for the star...
Click to expand...

Yes I thought the same, it looks like the original holes at the breast/chest of the griffon have been enlarged or expanded to place the star. look carefully but it seems that they have been "punched" to expand the hole left side and right side to fit something else of a larger size.

Click to expand...

It looks like the hole on the left side of the photo even has an indent toward the center of the plate where the 'tab' of the reservist cross indented / wore it a bit. Of course, that could be a trick of the light or something similar.

As for modifying helmets in use, I'm one of the most guilty NCO's in the US Army for doing that! I put a Harley eagle pin on my tanker helmet, was constantly painting camo patterns or making helmet covers for various climactic needs. None of this was 'original issue', but all of it was used.... so .. I guess there's really no point to my comment other than that I'm good at messing up (and keeping) the helmets issued to me.

:D Ron
 
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