Some recent additions - Hesse shakos & Siamese bayonets

drakegoodman

drakegoodman

Member
Gentlemen,

A few recent additions for comment. The first one I believe is utilising the impressive Rosental Viadukt in Friedberg, Hesse as a backdrop. There are a couple of differences on the facade when compared with a contemporary picture, but this may be due to renovations etc.

The feldgrau painted tschakos caught my eye.

4092363596_9b62491904_b.jpg

Original size


A nice clarity picture of Landsturmmänner from the 1st Landsturm Brigade, wearing their metallic collar devices on their shoulder straps.

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Original size


Have to thank George Wylie for picking up the Siamese M88 bayonets in this one - I was all ready to label them S71/84s :oops:

4091488295_7f4a7bd187_b.jpg

Original size

Warm regards from an even warmer Melbourne,

- Brett
 
Brett,

Could I ask you for some close up pictures of the Hessian headgear? Is there any identification of the unit for town on the back of the card? This is a tremendous postcard and I know of only two others showing these old shakos. Then there is the difference between the two types of old style shakos. Tony has his brilliant picture of a gentleman from the Landsturm Bn. Duisberg wearing a Hessian pickelhaube and a city is not in Hesse! I have another picture of the same Bn. wearing what looks like an old Prussian shako.
 
joerookery said:
Brett,

Could I ask you for some close up pictures of the Hessian headgear? Is there any identification of the unit for town on the back of the card? This is a tremendous postcard and I know of only two others showing these old shakos. Then there is the difference between the two types of old style shakos. Tony has his brilliant picture of a gentleman from the Landsturm Bn. Duisberg wearing a Hessian pickelhaube and a city is not in Hesse! I have another picture of the same Bn. wearing what looks like an old Prussian shako.
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Joe,

Thanks for the input. I'd like to see the photos you mentioned. I'll poke around Kaiser's Bunker, I'm assuming that's where I'll find them.

I'll scan some pics of the headgear later this afternoon for you, in the meantime, here's the reverse:

4091588447_c54e7641df.jpg

Original size
 
Thank you-- the first figure belongs to me as does second with the old crosses. The last picture belongs to Randy. I would not be surprised if Tony had several but this is a clear example of a helmet that did not exist in 1914 except as a hand me down/up.


Hessian_Shako.jpg
Hessian_Shako_1.jpg

Hessianshakocross_2.jpg
Hessianshakocross_3.jpg

Hessianshakocross_4.jpg
Hessianshakocross_1.jpg

randyhessian_1.jpg
randyhessian_2.jpg

randyhessian_3.jpg
randyhessianback_7.jpg

randyhessian.jpg
 
joerookery said:
Thank you-- the first figure belongs to me as does second with the old crosses. The last picture belongs to Randy. I would not be surprised if Tony had several but this is a clear example of a helmet that did not exist in 1914 except as a hand me down/up.
Click to expand...

WOW! To use some 'Downunder' vernacular, you Sir, are a dead-set legend. Those pictures are quite remarkable.

The centre picture, where the circular backing plate is absent from the tschako reminds me a superb picture in the collection of my Sensei, George Wylie. In fact it was George who informed me about the Hessians use of just the Landwehr Cross on their helmets. I owe George a great debt of gratitude for most of the things I've learned about the Landsturm. He must have the patience of a Saint.

Joe, here are the enlarged pictures you requested and a couple of others:

4099605114_4ed345563a_o.jpg


4099605120_80f6a495c6_o.jpg


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Okay, rummaged around a bit and found another picture - same battalion (fellow standing at the back):

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Original size

Lucky last. This one has me a little (should read "plenty") perplexed, Garde Landsturm? Nothing on reverse, and I had to PS this one to bring it up to a presentable standard. I suspect it was used as the Company's beer coaster after Tannenberg.

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Original size

Warm regards,

- Brett
 
The centre picture, where the circular backing plate is absent from the tschako reminds me a superb picture in the collection of my Sensei, George Wylie. In fact it was George who informed me about the Hessians use of just the Landwehr Cross on their helmets. I owe George a great debt of gratitude for most of the things I've learned about the Landsturm. He must have the patience of a Saint.
- Brett
Click to expand...

Brett

Thanks for the kind words. I am but the Grasshopper, I owe a debt of gratitude to Master Po (Joe), and Master Kan (Tony).

Love all these photos, you see something new everytime you look at them! You might recognize that totally excellant Garde Landsturm wappen from one of Johan Somers books. Which reminds me, the first time I opend my first volume I saw a pickelhaube with schrapnel damage to the spike, and remember thinking I have seen this one before, and then I saw T's name!

Here's the photo you were refering to:

Hessian men of the 49th Landsturm Brigade employed as Eisenbahn Wache, (Railroad (Watch) Guard). Their Landwehr Crosses have no backing plates. All armed with Gew. 88's with S71 sidearms.

3663776311_bcfc5dcdff_b.jpg


And another fellow labeled Russland 1914:

3683371074_1a6a1ac357.jpg
 
Joe

I would agree with Tony's ID as Hessian Train. The early history of this branch of the Grand Ducal Hessian contingent is a bit grey. The Großh. Hess. Train-Abtheilung was only formed in 1868 (company strength) and was renamed as the Großh. Hess. Train-Compagnie after the Franco-German War. It did not achieve battalion strength until 1890 as Großh. Hess. Train-Bataillon Nr. 25 and ultimately renumbered as Großh. Hess. Train-Bataillon Nr. 18 on 1 October 1901.

As there does not appear to have been any independent Train troops in the Hessen-Darmstadt Division during the War of 1866 (none are listed in the order of battle besides artillery munitions columns, which I believe were manned by the artillery), I would gues this photo dates from the late sixties. The red pom pom was called a Huppe and thos of the NCOs had a white stripe in the centre.

Regards
Glenn
 
Glenn,

I looked at the official history of the 1866 war and could not find any train troops either. Still I have problems with it being after the war–no proof–just the pom-pom seems to be so “Confederation”. I did not know it at a separate name and will try to find the convention with Prussia–maybe there is something there. Or maybe with the peace treaty???

So when did they stop wearing shakos? was the Wappen the same size as the pickelhaube? Obviously there were two types of Wappen.
The lion and the large cross. Landwehr? Train? Identifying all of these guys has proven to be a real challenge!


ps751 by joerookery, on Flickr


ps747 by joerookery, on Flickr
 
Joe

Still I have problems with it being after the war–no proof–just the pom-pom seems to be so “Confederation”.
Click to expand...

They wore the original Hessen Shako with pom pom until incorporated into the Prussian Army in 1872 when they adopted a red and white "National". On 23 August 1877 they then adopted the Prussian pattern shako whilst of course retaining the Hessen Feldzeichen. All Prussian Train Battalions adopted the Pickelhaube per AKO of 24 October 1903.

Paul Pietsch illustrates the uniforns of the Großherzoglich Hessische Division in the Franco German War in his Uniformbogen series. This also shows the same shako and pom poms as worn by the then extant Hessian Jäger Battalions.

Regards
Glenn
 
I think there was more meat in this thread. So borrowing from both:

Tony without Kaiser said:
joerookery said:
//Why Litzen?//
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Because he is wearing the Waffenrock of Leibgarde-Infanterie-Regt. (1. Großherzoglich Hessisches) Nr.115.

Thought you had another photo of some fellows wearing the IR115 Waffenrock but with Tschakos?
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Yes, a couple come to mind. One no shako.

ps566 by joerookery, on Flickr

I have a hand written note in a reference from an old collector that a/116 were the uniform of JR 115–nothing more than scratched note.

Then there is this mess:

ps747 by joerookery, on Flickr

the shoulder strap and shako combination is horrible. Add the uniform and the comments by R1 about the belt buckle and we are off to the races!

Joe: For what it is worth, the fellow in your last photo (ps747) is wearing a Prussian belt buckle.

Reservist1
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Glenn,


Paul Pietsch illustrates the uniforns of the Großherzoglich Hessische Division in the Franco German War in his Uniformbogen series.
Click to expand...

I do not have this–I am still streaming through the last two books you recommended–fantastic! I am not a book collector, I am not a book collector, I am not a book collector, I am not a book collector, I am not a book collector, frankly, I think I'm becoming a big liar!
 
Joe

The Uniformbogen or "Brauerbogen" were a series of individual prints published between 1926 and 1962 covering in the main German military uniform subjects (but some other European States) of the 18th and 19th Centuries. Number 30, which is in fact the only one I own, covered the Hessian Division in 1870-71. This shows half of the plate, the other half being schematics.

Regards
Glenn



hessen01.jpg
 
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