Strange Prussian Officer - Update

[Peter B]

Really strange one here. Seller describes as officer but many other ranks features such as the ersatz looking leather liner, lack of coloured visors, other ranks wappen etc. Looks like the wappen may have been changed and also (extra holes) looks like there might have been coloured cloth on the back visor at some point (see sewing on edge and missing screw on spine). No officer's stars on the spike. Could this have been a officer's helmet that someone switched the wappen? One year volunteer? Obviously not the right kokarden either and in the wrong position.

Opinions welcome.

Peter

 

[Peter B]

More pictures.

 

[b.loree]

The liner is the older officer style worn 1842-1880. The spike matches this time period as it is shorter than those seen on the 1890 models. I have also seen unlined plain leather visors on private purchase helmets before. The wappen may have been replaced but the rear spine and visor trim fit perfectly and are original to the helmet. Does the wappen have screw posts?

 

[Peter B]

Wappen has loops. Hard to see but they are there in the one picture where there are extra holes. The one in the second set with the writing.

 

[Peter B]

So do you think this helmet is all original except for the changed wappen and kokarden? Could it have been a one year volunteer who used an OR wappen or did someone just mess with it later and put on the wrong wappen etc?

Thanks.

Peter

 

[coert65]

Well, I like the helmet, but I personally think somebody was busy using other parts, like the wappen for instance, maybe to complete the helmet.
If you look at the inside, I think I can see imprints of the washers, used before to put under the square nuts for the wappen, and the spikebase.
So, I think the helmet once had a wappen with screwposts, and stars for the spike.
But these are only my thoughts, I might be wrong.

Regards, Coert.

 

[Peter B]

I think you are right Coert. And in the one picture I think I can see the ghost of a star shape on the spike base top right.

Strange how they took those stars off but kept the original spike.

So to make it right, officer wappen, kokarde and stars for the spike. Hmmmmm?

 

[coert65]

Well, I think so. Maybe somebody had an M1890's officer helmet, with enlisted wappen and the enlisted spike retainers on it, and changed those for the ones on your helmet. Kept the spike itself, as Brian stated, it is shorter, and so completed an M1890's officer helmet.
But left your helmet as it is now, and sold it off. You can never know what has happened to the helmets we all cherish..in all the years gone by.

 

[b.loree]

I think that is all that has to be done Pete and the you will have an excellent pre 1880’s officer helmet. The scales are also of the thicker older style which is as it should be to match spike, liner etc. A good find

 

[Peter B]

So I am getting it for $500 Canadian or about $370 US. Very happy!

Turns out the guy selling it is a friend of my wife's uncle. Small world.

Now to get the missing bits....

 

[aicusv]

What is with the chin strap and cockades?

 

[Peter B]

The guy has them on wrong and they are not the right ones for the helmet. I'll have to get some officer ones and put them on correctly, and an 1880 Officer's Wappen and the correct stars for the spike. I pick it up this Friday.

 

[Peter B]

Okay an update on my latest helmet. Coert was exactly right about the imprints from the washers. Now that I have a correct officer's wappen (thank you again James) from the right era on it they did line up perfectly. In the one picture it looks like there is another hole with a washer outline but there is not actually a hole. Just the extra set from the OR's wappen that got on it at one point in time. Interestingly there is an outline pressed into the shell of the OR's wappen (on one side only) so it was on there for some time. Whether that was done by a collector a long time ago or because the helmet was used by an OR back in the day is a mystery. Needless to say I will also keep that wappen with the helmet.

Likewise when I added Brian's excellent officer stars to the spike the washer lined up perfectly with the previous imprint (thanks Brian - I used some brass black to darken the steel nuts).

I now also have two original officer's kokarden on the helmet and have reinforces the chin scales, which had a couple fo weak points. I simply put some quality leather glue underneath the existing leather to reinforce then and it cannot be seen. Some idiot had used brasso on the chin scales so I carefully removed as much as I could with a q-tip and water (very carefully) and I think it has turned out rather nice. It is not beside my Prussian Artillery Officer helmet.

There is also a name on the visor (Wefers?) that is hard to make out and maybe another one inside that is also hard to make out.

I also attached a picture of the OR's wappen, that I cleaned just a bit with vinegar. Looks to be a quality one and maybe also private purchase?

 

[Jeff R]

Beautiful - what a change from Day One!

 

[Peter B]

Beautiful - what a change from Day One!

Thanks Jeff.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Beau - The liner is effectively the model for an officer, called "alter Art". After 1885, it will only remain for the Extra-Helm-Eigentum for Engaged for a year or for the portepee non-commissioned officers. Officers will receive the sweatband and silk bottom. On the other hand, usually, for the officers: presence of the green and red linings, and absence for the private purchases of the troop.

 

[Sandmann]

Well done Peter, looks much better

 

[Peter B]

Beau - The liner is effectively the model for an officer, called "alter Art". After 1885, it will only remain for the Extra-Helm-Eigentum for Engaged for a year or for the portepee non-commissioned officers. Officers will receive the sweatband and silk bottom. On the other hand, usually, for the officers: presence of the green and red linings, and absence for the private purchases of the troop.

Really great information.

I think based on this there is a possibility that it started out as an officer helmet (there are star marks on the spike base where the original ones were) and was then possibly passed on to a soldier who added the OR wappen and changed the stars to domes. Also the Reichs kokarde that was on it was an officer one with the ring removed. The other incorrect Wurttemberg kokarde must have been put on by a collector at some point. That would explain things. So all the more reason to keep the OR Wappen and modified kokarde with the helmet. I do like it much better being back to it’s “start-state” now though.

Oh to have a Time Machine and follow it through history.

Peter