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Anonymous
Guest
Turnabout is fair play. :lol:
Behold! A Brandenburgisches Dragoner Nr.2
Chas.
Behold! A Brandenburgisches Dragoner Nr.2
Chas.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Philippe:
No, Pickelhauben like this seldom appear on eBay these days. The Brandenburg Dragoner is also an excellent learning tutorial. Let's see if anyone is willing to deconstruct it.
Chas.
No, Pickelhauben like this seldom appear on eBay these days. The Brandenburg Dragoner is also an excellent learning tutorial. Let's see if anyone is willing to deconstruct it.
Chas.
dave mosher
Active member
Chas
Gorgeous helmet! What is the corpus made of? It doesn't look like leather...
Dave
Gorgeous helmet! What is the corpus made of? It doesn't look like leather...
Dave
I thought it was just the giant metal plate under the cruciform base that we see inside, that seems common on Dragoner helmets. I did not know you had this Chas? Marked to DR2? Close-up of that rare Wappen please? T
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi Dave; Hi Tony:
I almost cringe when I admit this helmet was purchased through Manions years ago. Perhaps it wasn't fair to "flaunt" this in front of Mr. X as I have many questions about the piece. First off, it bears no unit markings whatsoever. Here is a close-up of the Wappen. What we have here, pineapple on a stick?
The Wappen is attached by split prongs. Note how the 12 o'clock hole has been enlarged. Additionally, there appears to be traces of rust in the vicinity of the 6 o'clock hole.
Here is one of the soldered attachment loops. Nothing appears amiss with either loop. They haven't been moved, etc.
The Korpus sans bird. There is a strong ghost and impression of the Dragoner Adler.
The Spitzenhals:
Dave, the Korpus is leather, but it appears to have an entirely different texture (inside and outside) than the visors. The interior has been dyed black. I'll take some macro shots of this and post the pictures by this evening.
Actually, what bothers me most about this helmet is the Dragoner eagle itself. I mentioned rust above, and guess what? It's magnetic. Furthermore, the brass color is not paint. The bird is also extremely thin and light weight. It certainly is at odds with the quality of the Brandenburg Wappen and the brass furniture of the helmet itself.
Fake, anomaly? I really dont know. This may be dangerous logic, but it seems to me it would have been relatively easy for a faker to drill holes in a genuine Dragoner eagle to create a Brandenburg using the same silvered Wappen. The helmet itself is good. Is that black dye concealing a world of sin? It doesn't appear to be.
Chas. :?:
I almost cringe when I admit this helmet was purchased through Manions years ago. Perhaps it wasn't fair to "flaunt" this in front of Mr. X as I have many questions about the piece. First off, it bears no unit markings whatsoever. Here is a close-up of the Wappen. What we have here, pineapple on a stick?
The Wappen is attached by split prongs. Note how the 12 o'clock hole has been enlarged. Additionally, there appears to be traces of rust in the vicinity of the 6 o'clock hole.
Here is one of the soldered attachment loops. Nothing appears amiss with either loop. They haven't been moved, etc.
The Korpus sans bird. There is a strong ghost and impression of the Dragoner Adler.
The Spitzenhals:
Dave, the Korpus is leather, but it appears to have an entirely different texture (inside and outside) than the visors. The interior has been dyed black. I'll take some macro shots of this and post the pictures by this evening.
Actually, what bothers me most about this helmet is the Dragoner eagle itself. I mentioned rust above, and guess what? It's magnetic. Furthermore, the brass color is not paint. The bird is also extremely thin and light weight. It certainly is at odds with the quality of the Brandenburg Wappen and the brass furniture of the helmet itself.
Fake, anomaly? I really dont know. This may be dangerous logic, but it seems to me it would have been relatively easy for a faker to drill holes in a genuine Dragoner eagle to create a Brandenburg using the same silvered Wappen. The helmet itself is good. Is that black dye concealing a world of sin? It doesn't appear to be.
Chas. :?:
Kaiser Bill
New member
Hi Chas,
A few items struck me as odd:
1) The Brandenburg helmets that I have seen use the chicken on a stick.
2) The solder on the back of the plates were applied with a soldering iron. Yours appears to have beeen applied with a blow torch.... ie overkill.
3) The biggest question is with the spike base. That looks to be a Hessen cruciform base. What is with that base for the spike? Does the cone under the spike also screw off? Ouestions, questions, questions. Bill
A few items struck me as odd:
1) The Brandenburg helmets that I have seen use the chicken on a stick.
2) The solder on the back of the plates were applied with a soldering iron. Yours appears to have beeen applied with a blow torch.... ie overkill.
3) The biggest question is with the spike base. That looks to be a Hessen cruciform base. What is with that base for the spike? Does the cone under the spike also screw off? Ouestions, questions, questions. Bill
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Bill:
Thanks for your queries. I'll do my best to address them.
When I mentioned pineapple on a stick, I was referring to the motif on the silver Brandenburg Wappen. This much is correct and entirely consistent with the example pictured on page 52 of Jean-Louis Larcade's Casques a Point - Tome II. The Dragoner Adler features the correct line chicken on a stick.
I can see the photograph of the plate's backside gives the impression of solder blasted all around the loop, but there is actually very little present. I've examined the area in question under a magnifying lens and it appears to be a combination of carbon residue and an absence of the gold finish. In other words, it resembles a tin can someone threw in the fire. This likely indicates the gold finish was applied before the loops were soldered and the heat caused it burn away.
Regarding the cruciform, I looks like the correct pattern for Dragoner to me. The base is the standard "egg" pearlring present on all Dragoner Mannschaften helmets prior to the introduction of the M15. There is a five holed inner sleeve that is misaligned with the ventilation holes in the spike neck that I am at pains to explain. However, I have encountered this mysterious device on other older helmets. For comparison, Tony's Model 1894 Preußen Dragoner is an excellent point of reference.
http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/
Below are pictures of the dyed interior.
Again, my main issue is with a gold toned magnetic eagle. Does anyone know if these were ever legitimate issue pieces?
Chas.
Thanks for your queries. I'll do my best to address them.
When I mentioned pineapple on a stick, I was referring to the motif on the silver Brandenburg Wappen. This much is correct and entirely consistent with the example pictured on page 52 of Jean-Louis Larcade's Casques a Point - Tome II. The Dragoner Adler features the correct line chicken on a stick.
I can see the photograph of the plate's backside gives the impression of solder blasted all around the loop, but there is actually very little present. I've examined the area in question under a magnifying lens and it appears to be a combination of carbon residue and an absence of the gold finish. In other words, it resembles a tin can someone threw in the fire. This likely indicates the gold finish was applied before the loops were soldered and the heat caused it burn away.
Regarding the cruciform, I looks like the correct pattern for Dragoner to me. The base is the standard "egg" pearlring present on all Dragoner Mannschaften helmets prior to the introduction of the M15. There is a five holed inner sleeve that is misaligned with the ventilation holes in the spike neck that I am at pains to explain. However, I have encountered this mysterious device on other older helmets. For comparison, Tony's Model 1894 Preußen Dragoner is an excellent point of reference.
http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/
Below are pictures of the dyed interior.
Again, my main issue is with a gold toned magnetic eagle. Does anyone know if these were ever legitimate issue pieces?
Chas.
Kaiser Bill
New member
Chas, Ok you have answered all of my questions and I agree with your answers except for the cruciform base. All cruciform bases have a crimped edge (where the spike base meets the leather shell) with the exception of Hessen spike bases. To my knowledge it is the only helmet that has this feature. So there is an absolute........ now watch by tomarrow there will be ten examples that prove me wrong. :roll: Bill
Kaiser Bill said:
Bill, will you settle for two? I am afraid I do not know what you mean? Crimpled edge? None of my spike bases have this?
Model 1894 Baden Dragoner Mannschaften (Other Ranks) Pickelhaube for 1. Badisches Leib - Dragoner - Regt. Nr. 20, which has the same "liitte blunted spike" under the spike top like Chas's example, as does all my Dragoner issued helmets.
Model 1886/1896 Bayern (Bavaria) Field Artillery Regt 7 Mannschaften Pickelhaube.
reservist1
Member
Tony: I think Bill may be referring to cross bases for officer helmets. The cross bases on officer helmets (except Hessian) have a groove impressed (crimped) around the circumference of the base just inside the edge.
Reservist1
Reservist1
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi Bill, Tony, and Joe:
Bill, I knew it was just a matter of time before Tony would settle the matter of the cruciform. I knew what you meant by "crimped edge," but didn't want to be the one accusing you of having Offizier helmets on the brain. Yes, Württ and Bayern Offizier helmets have a defined lip around the perimeter of the cruciform and Hesse does not, but Mannschaften Dragoner is a different thing entirely. As Joe said, the arms of the Hessen cruciform are all of equal length. The Dragoner cruciform has a stubby front arm.
The two major reasons why experienced, rational collectors would shun this helmet are:
1. It is not marked DR 2
2. The eagle is tin or steel with a gold tone finish.
I must confess I was neither that experienced nor rational when I acquired this helmet, and it wasn't until posting this topic that I thought to check the Wappen with a magnet. I sometimes used to roll my eyes when Joe would ask questions about things being magnetic, but, believe me, I check everything now.
It is still possible the whole affair is legitimate, but who would buy into that without comparable issue?
As you said, "questions, questions, questions."
Chas.
Bill, I knew it was just a matter of time before Tony would settle the matter of the cruciform. I knew what you meant by "crimped edge," but didn't want to be the one accusing you of having Offizier helmets on the brain. Yes, Württ and Bayern Offizier helmets have a defined lip around the perimeter of the cruciform and Hesse does not, but Mannschaften Dragoner is a different thing entirely. As Joe said, the arms of the Hessen cruciform are all of equal length. The Dragoner cruciform has a stubby front arm.
The two major reasons why experienced, rational collectors would shun this helmet are:
1. It is not marked DR 2
2. The eagle is tin or steel with a gold tone finish.
I must confess I was neither that experienced nor rational when I acquired this helmet, and it wasn't until posting this topic that I thought to check the Wappen with a magnet. I sometimes used to roll my eyes when Joe would ask questions about things being magnetic, but, believe me, I check everything now.
It is still possible the whole affair is legitimate, but who would buy into that without comparable issue?
As you said, "questions, questions, questions."
Chas.
Chas, the entire Wappen is magnetic? I have seen two legitimate officer eagle Wappen that were magnetic, and gilted. This in my mind reflects reality, as it is easier to make a fake from nice soft brass. I suspect these magnetic chickens are a result of wartime brass restrictions. To me, your eagle Wappen looks legit? Its just very odd being magnetic?
here is that little edge on officer helmets Bill was probably talking about?
here is that little edge on officer helmets Bill was probably talking about?
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi Tony:
Both the chicken and the Brandenburg crest are magnetic. Your line of thought regarding soft brass is the one reason I'm standing by my Mannschaften. Copper would be the best conductor for electroforming, but this plate was die stamped and trimmed of flash. You can see this by looking at edges on the reverse side of plate above. Also, the reverse details are as crisp as the front.
Furthermore, why would a faker go to the bother of fabricating a tin chicken when there are certainly original brass ones available for conversion?
The helmet itself is entirely original Dragoner, nevertheless it displays eccentricities of its own. Why has the interior skull been dyed? Why is the heft and texture of the Korpus so thin and smooth when the visors are chunky?
The chinscales are the delicate lighweight Eigentumstück style and provide the best fit I have ever seen on the helmet. By this I mean they really hug the front without being stressed to do so.
One would think all this weirdness screams "Frankenhelmet." Yet every part fits perfectly.
It's a mystery for the ages. Here is one final look: reassembled and dusted (it did look rather grotty in a couple of those pix).
Chas.
Both the chicken and the Brandenburg crest are magnetic. Your line of thought regarding soft brass is the one reason I'm standing by my Mannschaften. Copper would be the best conductor for electroforming, but this plate was die stamped and trimmed of flash. You can see this by looking at edges on the reverse side of plate above. Also, the reverse details are as crisp as the front.
Furthermore, why would a faker go to the bother of fabricating a tin chicken when there are certainly original brass ones available for conversion?
The helmet itself is entirely original Dragoner, nevertheless it displays eccentricities of its own. Why has the interior skull been dyed? Why is the heft and texture of the Korpus so thin and smooth when the visors are chunky?
The chinscales are the delicate lighweight Eigentumstück style and provide the best fit I have ever seen on the helmet. By this I mean they really hug the front without being stressed to do so.
One would think all this weirdness screams "Frankenhelmet." Yet every part fits perfectly.
It's a mystery for the ages. Here is one final look: reassembled and dusted (it did look rather grotty in a couple of those pix).
Chas.
Chas:
Having read the discussion on this helmet, I would agree with Tony in the fact that it is a correct original helmet with some manufacturing eccentricities. There is too much "right" about this piece for it to be a fake. Saying that, if this helme still causes you nightmares then as a good friend I would be happy to hide it away from sight up here in the Great White North. The GWN title is especially a propos considering we are expecting 30cm of snow tonight. Brian
Having read the discussion on this helmet, I would agree with Tony in the fact that it is a correct original helmet with some manufacturing eccentricities. There is too much "right" about this piece for it to be a fake. Saying that, if this helme still causes you nightmares then as a good friend I would be happy to hide it away from sight up here in the Great White North. The GWN title is especially a propos considering we are expecting 30cm of snow tonight. Brian
Kaiser Bill
New member
Well officer's helmets on the brain is a nice way to put it. I think I need an emoticon for road kill. Bill
spikeymikey
Member
"Standing by my Mannschaften" - was that pun intended Chas? I just had a terrible vision of Tammy Wynette singing it! 
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Anonymous
Guest
Bravo Mike!
You caught it (just a moment of levity).
Forget about road kill, Bill. I said the helmet was a good tutorial. Admit it now, thiopental is strong stuff; best to check the ventilation system in your office. :lol:
Just don't bring any concealed weapons to the SOS.
Chas.
You caught it (just a moment of levity).
Forget about road kill, Bill. I said the helmet was a good tutorial. Admit it now, thiopental is strong stuff; best to check the ventilation system in your office. :lol:
Just don't bring any concealed weapons to the SOS.
Chas.
kaiserzeit
New member
Thanks, guys. This has been a very interesting thread.
Charles, on the subject of eccentricities, it would not surprise me at all if the regimental storesman, in the name of good management, might put together the odd helmet from parts. Hence, the mismatched neck guard, visor and skullcap.
He might not have done this very often but, 90~100 years down the road, these very legitimate frankenhelms could be turning up every now and then to confuse the issue.
I'll bet you your Dragonerhelme is one such helmet.
Cheers,
Laurie
Charles, on the subject of eccentricities, it would not surprise me at all if the regimental storesman, in the name of good management, might put together the odd helmet from parts. Hence, the mismatched neck guard, visor and skullcap.
He might not have done this very often but, 90~100 years down the road, these very legitimate frankenhelms could be turning up every now and then to confuse the issue.
I'll bet you your Dragonerhelme is one such helmet.
Cheers,
Laurie
spikeymikey
Member
What about Joe Cock[ad]er -"With a little 'Haub from my Friends" :lol: