Trench detectives

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
I don't know where he got it however, Pierre just sent a wonderful documentary in English that showed the discovery of some human remains on the Loos battlefield in 1915. Through some rather good detective work they discovered who this individual was and found his unit to the ninth company RJR 16 of the Bavarian army. Same unit as Hitler. This was really well done using uniform parts, equipment, postcards and buttons to piece together the identity of the individual. In addition, there were lots of segments from the Bavarian archives. They even read from the unit history of RJR 16 something that Jack Sheldon has never even seen!

My only criticism is that he was identified as working class when really he was firmly in the middle class, his father a craftsman plumber, and he attended high school. He entered the Army as a war volunteer which is very consistent.

I don't know why I get unsettled at remains from World War I. Had the bones been from Alexander the great's army I would be cheering to look for any kind of artifact -- for some reason a more current conflict bothers me. Not sure why. Certainly did not stop me from watching the show. Good job Pierre!
 
Saw this - thanks to Pierre :thumbleft: (and for the introduction to Dropbox).

I was interested that when the shoulder-strap was unearthed, even in it's pitiful state, one of the 'detectives' immediately identified it as belonging to a member of RJR 16, namely because of the red 16 sewn onto it.

My question is this, unless he had an order of battle for the German units involved in the Battle of Loos in his back pocket, how would he have known it was a reserve regiment and not Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 16 for instance.

Normally I'd try to nut this out myself, but my library is still in storage pending a move to larger digs.

In relation to your comments Joe, about feeling unsettled: A friend in the UK recently recounted an experience he had whilst visiting Mametz Wood. Whilst looking at relic helmets in a thicket, he was overcome by, and I'll quote from his email, "a dreadful cold feeling, and I didn't go any further". Not the sort of guy to take the piss either.

Incidentally, I watched another doco recently on the discovery of the remains of some Aussies in France or Belgium, what moved me was that they were so far from home, for so long, and had no prospect of ever coming home as they were being buried in a communal war grave over there. I know there's all kinds of romantic notions about being buried with your mates etc, but if it were me, I'd want to be in Aussie dirt.

Cheers,

- Brett
 
unless he had an order of battle for the German units involved in the Battle of Loos in his back pocket
Click to expand...

I know very little about shoulder straps but I think they had to have pretty detailed knowledge of the battle if you remember they actually talk about a British unit before the looters got to the site. :happy7: :happy7:
 
Thanks, gentlemen, for your enthusastic reactions! This documentary shows also a view , why I am so passioned about visiting the battlefields myself, but of course without digging and without looting!
There is no Glory in dying on the battlefield, and being interred in a mass grave.
The massgrave, about which you write, Brett, is Pheasant Wood near Fromelles, France where some 400 Australians has been found in 8 mass graves next to each other.
The units of both belligerent parties of the Battle of Loos are still well documented. So, you may trust , gentlemen, these Trench Detectives nailed the identification of the Regiment correctly.
I hope to visit amongst others the Loos battlefields and the new Pheasant Wood Cemetery myself this May. I am now studying both parties.
Next Sunday I will upload part 2 of Trench Detectives about Passchendaele.

Pierre
 
My question is this, unless he had an order of battle for the German units involved in the Battle of Loos in his back pocket, how would he have known it was a reserve regiment and not Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 16 for instance.
Click to expand...
On second thought, you made me doubt, Brett. So, now I only recognise on my maps the 16 I.R., part of the 14th Division, guarding the line on both sides of the road from Cambrin to La Bassée, west -northwest of Auchy. Not a 16. R.I.R. Have to dig deeper again! :twisted:
 
103iixl.jpg


Brett, I sometimes consult an electronic copy of an old American book for identifying the German army units during the years of the Great War. It has been “compiled” in 1919 “from records of Intelligence section of the General Staff, American Expeditionary Forces, at General Headquarters; Chaumont, France”. The title is “Histories of two hundred and fifty-one divisions of the German army which participated in the war (1914-1918)” and the book has been published in 1920. I suppose that many of you already know this reference book.
During my preparation of the Battle of Loos, I studied the battle order of the 14th Division and the 117th Division. There is not mentioned in the reference book a 16. Reserve .I.R. along the 1915 Loos-front, only a 16 I.R., part of the 14th Division.
The Trench Detectives may have identified the “Kapelmeister” and with that he will have been a member of the 16 R.I.R. but then it still is a mystery what the Reserve regiment was doing in 1915 at Loos? :???:

Excuses for my re-edits...
 
Bear in mind, there are errors in the book "Histories of 251 Divisions"
I would have to assume that the postcards were the definitive items that lead to his ID
Gus
 
Gustaf said:
Bear in mind, there are errors in the book "Histories of 251 Divisions"
I would have to assume that the postcards were the definitive items that lead to his ID
Gus
Click to expand...
I am always open to new suggestions and advise, Gus, to a new reference book, which gives a correct overview of the battle orders per war year. :) Most reference books with battle orders stop at August 1914. With the exceptions of the recommendable books of Middlebrook and Sheldon the German battle order is always neglected or at least written on Division level and not lower, naming battalions or ad hoc fighting units, the Germans often deployed.
 
Pierre,

You are on the right track but I think the wrong page. I went into volume 9 of the red books of the German war archive. I would propose that the error in the current analysis is a difference between the Prussian army and the Bavarian army. Prussian infantry Regiment 16 was in the 14th division. On the same map from 25 September 1915 to the north of the 14th and then 13 divisions was the Bavarian sixth reserve division. If you look in the source that you are using you will see on page 138 that the regiment was with this division throughout the war. B. RJR 16 Was not in the 117th division, nor its northern neighbor the 14th division, nor the other division of VII Corps the 13th division but rather was part of the 6 b. RD II b. AK somewhere in front of Fromelles on 25 September. You really had me looking! Now I have to go back to the documentary and see if indeed this is the correct location. You have really done a good job stirring the pot on this one :bravo: :bravo:
 
I look forward to Part 2 Pierre.

I have the "Histories of 251 Divisions etc" somewhere on my external HDD, even printed it out once (at work of course). But I've found a far more user friendly book, containing the same information to be "The German Forces in the Field November 1918" compiled by the General Staff, war Office and produced by Battery Press.

All the Landsturm battalions are there too.

Thanks again,

- Brett
 
Brett, just posted part 2. Thanks for your suggestion. I will try to get the reference book "The German Forces in the Field November 1918" in one way or another.
Indeed printing of about 750 pages is a lot of work and costs a ot of ink. :)
 
Thanks Pierre, I watched Part 2 as soon as it downloaded. The end was a little amusing - after all the work they put in to tracing the possible owner of the watch and then tracking down one of his quite exuberant relatives, some boffin goes and spoils it all.

I won't ruin it for those who haven't watched it, but those that have will know what I'm on about. :D
 
:D From the beginning of this documentary you see indeed the trap opening for the guys of the No Man’s Land-team, Brett. They draw to early their conclusions about the word “England”, hoping, as little adventurous boys, this should lead to a fine solution and even a rather romantic story behind the finding of the watch. At least they are gentlemen enough to express their disappointment about their premature, misinterpreting of the facts. In a way this documentary warns us also not to draw conclusions too quickly, and not to fantasize too much about possible “romantic” outcomes of a research.
But I do recognize and highly respect the enthusiasm of the No Man’s Land-team for their research, and that's why I forgive them to have had a kind of tunnel vision for a short period.
A Dutch proverb sais: "It is better to return half way, then to get lost totally." :)
 
A very interesting subject - while I am not doing much battlefield viewing myself I wonder what you think of things like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150410348611&category=13974

Is such a find not legally protected (particularly if the soldier was found too)? If you view the sellers history, you see that he has been and still is selling relics in vast numbers, evidently freshly recovered. There appears to be quite a business with such items going on.
 
Joe, I checked it again with the reference book and other sources. As expected of course, you are definitely right about Bavarian 16 R.I.R. and the reference book also tells about the division staying between Greniers Wood and Aubers from April 1915 until September 1916, which also , no wonder, accords to my other sources.
 
Robert said:
A very interesting subject - while I am not doing much battlefield viewing myself I wonder what you think of things like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150410348611&category=13974

Is such a find not legally protected (particularly if the soldier was found too)? If you view the sellers history, you see that he has been and still is selling relics in vast numbers, evidently freshly recovered. There appears to be quite a business with such items going on.
Click to expand...
Robert, I am glad that you open this topic. I could not see in the linked page exactly, but the phrase with it, told me enough. In France it is forbidden by law to dig yourself or use a metal detector, unless you are digging in your own grounds.
I have seen collections of Belgian and French locals with all kind of personal possessions, like wallets, combs, tobacco boxes, etc. I am not writing now about hand grenades, rifles, or bombs, but about personal belongings.
Whenever I ask these guys, if they did not find any human remains in the area around the finding of such personal possessions, they always shut up, or are having no time anymore, or telling other evasive stories. Look for instance here: http://pierreswesternfront.punt.nl/?id=415180&r=1&tbl_archief=& .
I have been told that in the case of finding human remains, you always have to inform the police, which seems to me the most logical thing to do. I suppose these guys don’t. Most local collectors are getting their objects from their own grounds, and sell their surplus like rifle grenades and shrapnel to front tourists. The personal stuff is always kept by themselves.
From a moral viewpoint I am against “looting” a human body of his personal objects and leave the body, where it is, or keep it hidden somewhere else.
We must remember that there are still thousands and thousands soldiers buried in the battlefield, sometimes in tact, many times spread in microscopic pieces. I often walk these battlefields, but always with respect for what might be lying under my feet.
We must also not forget that other collectors keep this market in digged up personal belongings alive! Not only the digger/seller acts immoral, but also the buyer.
 
Pierre, thanks for the info. The ebay number is 150410348611 but this is a closed auction so maybe you need to log in first.

Actually I had hoped the law to be as you explained. Of course old equipment will be surfacing at the battlefields, just last week children found an old hand grenade near my town and there is a river with old ammunition in it close by. But if human remains are involved then I suspect that in most European countries the entire find is treated like a grave, and legally protected. Personally I can't see why anyone would buy such artifacts but as long there is a demand there will be a supply I guess.
 
I suspect that in most European countries the entire find is treated like a grave, and legally protected.
Click to expand...
I am not a lawyer, Robert, but such a finding should at least be treated as a legally protected grave. In Belgium and in France, one is , as far as I know, obliged by law to call the police in such a case.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top